NicD

Let me explain this is the simplest form possible since you clearly have no actual experience with this...
I tuned a ZR1 which has the same low side fuel pump as a 19 Z06 that the OP has so I know where the 19 low side starts to drop pressure since we did actual testing,
The OP assumed that the low side doesn't need to be touched to run flex fuel on a bolt on combo because people keep saying that the 19 low side pump is that much larger than the earlier years,
Based on our actual testing the low side pump is not going to keep up with a bolt on full E85 flex fuel setup, it will need at a minimum a low side pump addition to keep pressure up to keep the high side happy and even then it maxes out shortly thereafter.

Mikec7z

so let me then explain where my mind is....

people are running an enhanced 2300 or an enhanced lt4 blower with straight 93 gas, and the low side can keep up.

e85 is 20% less energy containment in the fuel, and needs 20% more fuel to make the same power. (but it prevents knock obviously, which you know, so more aggressive timing can be ran)

so if i have a pump that pumps 20% more fuel, i can match what others are doing on straight pump gas, and i can match it on e85, with the same blower and pulley setup.

I'm well aware you managed to run a 750hp stock zr1 out of fuel at about 850 crank HP while running e85 and a tune.

Had you not had the bad gasoline where you live, and could run 93-94 instead of your 90 octane garbage you guys are cursed with out there...

you could make more power without having to run as much e85. But you don't have that luxury, so you are making 850-900 crank hp with 100% e85, and with a larger blower that is harder to spin.

The OP of this thread, he only needs to run 50% e85, so instead of a 20% loss, we are at a 10% loss instead since he is running 93 and e85 50/50 mix.

so, we are at over 900 crank HP potential for the OP, based on what you accomplished on 100% e85 hp.

All he needs to do is add port injection. Adding another pump before port injection, is futile, as the DI injectors are the bottleneck....

and wasting money on those HP DI injectors and pumps is foolish when a person is going to wish they had port injection later anyway.

2nd in tank Pump comes AFTER port injection addition... if he needs to make OVER 900 crank hp with 50/50 e85 and 93.

Let me know where im wrong, and keep in mind, we have already tested this on real cars.

Also keep in mind, Crawford was tuning the lt5 blowers over 6 months ago, and has his own custom Port injection and lt5 bov controller.

I know its exciting times for you guys with your first tuned lt5... but there are others on this planet where this is old news.

I enjoyed your video where you thought you were a detective and solved how to make the lt5 make more low end torque let us know when you figure it out.

ajrothm

Nic, Fran just discovered the same thing... tuning their pullied ZR1 on pump gas only the low side pressure fell off hard and they couldn’t turn it up anymore. They ended up adding a low side system and meth to make 859 rw.

As you mentioned, theories and tech documents are great, experience is reality.

Where Mike is coming up with stock port injectors flowing a lot of fuel is beyond my comprehension. Everyone knows these things run out of injector quick...

AZGASSER

NicD tuned my CPR built set up with the 2300 to the number of 866rwhp. That was on E50/91 using their low side to keep things flowing. Math takes that to over 1000 crank and didn't add port injection. I would not spend $5000+ at this point to push higher. If I choose to hit 1000rwhp+ I will have a whole new engine built that can take that kind of abuse. CPR was able to get the 2300 to over 20# boost before belt wrap and slipping became an issue. For the OP goals, port injection is overkill and a waste of money. If he wants 900+ wheel then maybe but that was not what he had laid out initially. NicD may be able to chime in on the specifics of his tuning goal on my Z, but I stay in my lane and let him do his thing.

Mikec7z

I have a feeling your buddy left COT active. Otherwise, he should not be out of fuel.

ill see if i can find you a link to show you what im talking about...

and again, guys, you are talking about +800 at the wheels, yes, you will need another fuel pump.

Go back and read my original post.

if the OP throws on some blower upgrades he will be fine, but if he takes it to the max, then eventually, yes, he will add port injection and another pump when spinning a PD blower.

But in the mean time, his 19 pump can carry him pretty high (past stock zr1 power levels, mathematical certainty) and he does not have to pay a dollar on the fuel system.

instead, he can get the Fore double 19 pump hanger when it DOES comes out.

keep in mind, i was in this thread before NicD, i was not trying to bash his shop or his products, i put up my advice on what products to buy.

It was NicD and a few others who countered me.

So do i walk away silently? or do i explain what ive already explained a couple times now?

Mikec7z

surprise surprise, look who is arguing with reality in this thread as well...

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ull-e85-3.html

keep in mind... this was on a NON 19 in tank pump. a 19 would have yeilded almost 20% more power yet. Enjoy

(ps, same guy who has been tuning lt5 blowers for over 6 months, you know, before all the other shops got super dramatic that they finally tuned theirs this past 2 weeks )

I also think this was the first thread where i started to admire Crawford and called him up on the phone to realize hes a class act and way ahead of the curve. Very intelligent fellow.

Im sorry you guys have bad gasoline in your state NicD, but again, just because bad gasoline is your reality, does not mean it is the rest of our reality. Thank you

Crawford designed an lt5 port injection and bov controller HIMSELF.... before many tuners ever tried to understand how to tune an lt5 using software and controllers designed by others.

Chew on that, and let that sink in for a bit

He designed it... others are still struggling to learn how they work ... bit of an iq gap between the 2 behaviors... don't you think?

ajrothm

Dude I guarantee you, I would listen to NicD, Higgs, and Fran about tuning the LT platform first and foremost over anyone on this forum. They build/tune tons of these cars daily and race them. They’ve been tuning them for at least 3 years, they know what really works and what doesn’t.

I think you are WAY over estimating what the fuel system capabilities are, especially for E85. Now throwing in aftermarket port injection completely changes everything, but even then you will need low side fuel system. I’m not familiar with the 19’ / ZR1 low side system buts, if the 2 premier LT shops in the country say the fuel pressure is tanking at 750 rwhp on pump gas and no meth, I’d take that to the bank.

Have you actually built/tuned a C7 yourself? Just curious...

rjacobs

I didnt intend this thread to turn into a pissing match..

What it has shown me is nobody REALLY knows where the limits of the 19 system is as it sits, just supposition based on what they are seeing on the ZR1. Maybe I will explore where the fuel system can go as it sits. I am not a tuner so playing around costs me money. I do intend to buy my own HP Tuners dongle so I own my tune. I got hosed on my C6Z and had to pay for a full tune twice. I dont intend to tune my own car, but once I pay credits on MY CAR, I dont want to have to pay credits again on my car if I choose to go to a new tuner.

Anyway.

Im still leaning towards doing the 2300 as a first mod and then grow into it. I feel meth is a bandaid, although I wouldnt mind using a small amount of it down here in Texas as an IAT cooling mod, but I really dont want to rely on it as a fuel source.

DI+port injection will be the way I will eventually go, no doubt in my mind about that. I wish there was a 2300 available already setup with port injection bungs. Maybe Crawford, D3 or WeaponX is working on one.

rbartick

I'm not sure how a person with experience in nothing became an expert in everything. This includes C7Z tuning, C7Z cooling, C7 marketing, C8 marketing, C8 design, C8 cooling, lemon laws, and the general management of GM. Has anyone else experienced the 150 MPH sea level limp mode he keeps reporting? There are plenty of us at running at sea level and I don't recall seeing any other reports of this issue.

Mikec7z

perhaps its like asking how a guy whos never ran a marathon can win one. And perhaps the answer is, all the other veteran runners were never that fast.

Im not a person who invented port injection... i just took the time to figure out who actually built the port injection controllers and also observed who is ahead of the curve on fueling these cars for the least amount of money spent.

Crawford is ahead of the game in more ways than 1. Ben at weaponX is a sharp fellow also. Frankly, other than those 2, i dont see any major shop on this forum who fully understand the better ways to fuel these cars. The crawford port controller link i posted above is clear evidence.

And it comes down to an attitude i suppose. When i know nothing or little about a topic, i go and i find the people who do know and i listen to them for a long time and ask a lot of questions.

As much as i think i know, if someone came along and said they were getting 1000hp out of a stock fuel system, i would at least listen to them and see how they say they are doing it.

Instead, if you study certain individuals on this forum, they instantly attack and say "BS!"... they are a closed box, unable to learn, because of the way they approach opportunities to learn.

Again, people who are trying to "unlock the mysteries of the lt5 blower and its tuning in april 2019" are not impressive to me when there were people struggling to CREATE computers to control the lt5 blower, last summer, and had them on cars before thanksgiving 2018 functioning flawlessly, if I remember correctly.

I've learned more through casual phone convo with Crawford, than i've learned here on the forum by a few of the vendors and the people who parrot what those vendors taught them, who are "trying" to prove how smart they are every thread they walk into, and will argue with anyone who does things differently.

https://www.crawford-racing.com/corv-cr-fueler

that plus $700 dollars for injectors, and you are at over 800rwhp with e85 on the 19 in tank pump.

Add a second in tank pump, and you are above 1200hp to the wheels on e85.

Touching the high side DI injectors or pumps, is a huge mistake in my opinion. Leave them alone, and save your money, and keep your reliability up.

NicD

Exactly.


These threads always turn into a pissing match when one guy in particular shows up, nothing but a bunch of hot air and novels about nothing from him. The ZR1 has the same low side pump as your car does which is why I chimed in and gave some information on it. Use it for what you will I'm not going to try to convince anybody of anything.

Mikec7z

nic, if you would learn to debate without slamming the other guys intelligence in your FIRST POSTS... these threads (including the one where you and Crawford and Cajun went at it for a bit) would not all turn into pissing contests.

You call people out in the way you talk down to them and try to imply they either dont know what they are doing, or are trying to deceive the masses.

I don't know about the rest of everyone, but my goal is not to trick and deceive anyone... im trying to help.

And im sorry, but i wont be silenced about port injection, by a guy, who posted up a video this week, openly admitting and proving the lt5 blower and how to tune it to its fullest capacity is still a mystery to him.... when the guys i get my info from are well past that stage in life, and their cars are already down the road running harder with bigger numbers than yours is.

ajrothm

Dude, you are delusional. Port injection is not hard to understand.....it’s simple as can be..It’s the fact that it’s not cost effective for stock blower builds making 750 rw and most people are not gonna spend $5k+ for port injection for an 800 hp build. I agree port injection is the best, most reliable way to go, but most will not do this.

As for you jerking Crawford off, MTI had port injection on a procharged C7Z back in 2015 making over 1k rwhp, as did LMR. AEM infinity secondary injector systems have been around forever, along with a hundred other types. Hell I’ve had secondary injectors and piggyback fuel controller on my 400rwhp turbo bike for 12 years. Crawford did not reinvent the wheel here so.... get off his nuts. He does make nice stuff and his integration of it on the LT platform is great. I’ve been looking as his kits recently myself, as well as Ben’s kit. However sticking with the stock blower for now eliminates the option for PFI I believe.

The CR kit is anywhere from $2800-4900, depending on what you select. There is a lot more cost involved then you are posting about. The ECM/harness, injectors are only a small part. You still need the rest of the fuel system, blower modification etc. All in all, even at $5k+, I think it’s the best/safest option to make big power with.. It’s just not feasible for everyone, especially with a stock blower.


If you had actually DONE any of this, or actually knew half of what you think you know, then you should sit back and watch the Pro Shops do the work and get the results.

Shops like RPM, CPR, MTI, LMR, AMP and a few others are paving the way for LT development....sit back, watch and learn... Quit reading **** and doing math..


In the interim, these cars need low side fuel systems, period....and I’m sure the 19s will too if running e85.

Mikec7z

well, port injection is apparently not that simple for you to understand, you cant even seem to tally up its costs correctly... and you make it sound as if it is astronomically more expensive than a 30% cam fuel lobe and labor costs for a cam swap, and high flow DI injectors, etc, plus meth, etc.

If a person wants to add a low side pump, fine, add it, but i still vote to do the port injection as part of step 1, and know that is where the build is going, so that if and when a person orders a blower, or has it ported, etc, they can take the steps to add the bungs or the bung spacer plates for the Port Injectors back at step 1 and save money in the long haul.

https://www.crawford-racing.com/corv-cr-fueler, the one on the left

+ 700 dollars for the injectors, and then another several hundred for the spacer plates for the injectors, or a person orders the blower with the bungs already pre drilled.

well past 800hp at the wheels with a 19 in tank pump. Let me know where the disconnect is.

And then, a 2nd in tank pump, and a person is past 1,200 hp at the wheels, worth of fuel. ... and probably closer to 13 or 1400hp at the wheels, but we wont push our point too far, because... frankly 1200 is plenty for most everyone, so i will stop there.

ajrothm

I didn't try to tally up the total costs... I saw enough of the costs to know I wasn't going to do it right now with a stock blower.

You are not making 800+ on the stock 19' low side, IF you are using only the stock low side to feed the PFI. The low side will run out of fuel way before the stock injectors will....

I don't see why you think the stock 19' low side system is so robust, when clearly two shops in the same week saw fuel pressure dropping at 750 hp on PUMP GAS...

Have you tested the 19' fuel system, have you studied the pump schematics/flow charts? obviously you have done some sort of calculations to make you think the 19' low side will feed 800hp+.... Which is comical.

Mikec7z

for the n'th time, Yes you are making over 750 at the wheels, almost 900 at the crank with the 15-18 pump, and over 800rwhp with the 19 pump, if port injection is used, the system flows more fuel when the fuel does not have to pass through the microscopic DI injector tip holes.

Learn please. Plenty of cars have proven this, cars before the 19 pump, with the smaller in tank pump, proved this ON FULL e85.

Thus it is very easy for the 19 pump to do this on e85 as well, or make even more power on lesser percentages of e85.

Again, lets see if you can read this thread this time...

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ull-e85-3.html

Or maybe you are calling both Cajun and Crawford liars... like nicD did?

ajrothm

I'm not calling anyone a liar...

But I guarantee you are NOT making 750 rwhp on E85 with a stock 15-18' Low side unless you are fogging a boat load of meth to it...Its not happening...PERIOD.... I have at least 4 friends locally, all with built C7Zs, every gawd damn one of them needed low side systems to even run E50 at 750rwhp.. The 19' low side may be better, but you aren't making 800 rwhp on E85 with it...regardless if you have PFI or not....(unless the PFI has its own secondary system or at least a boost pump in the stock low side).. The problem is the LOW SIDE PRESSURE FALLS OFF....Not just the issue of injector flow... Low side fuel pressure....that is the problem. Read it, let it sink in.

I'll stick with the big name shops, and pro tuners that do this stuff daily for advice, and I'll always recommend other members here to do the same.

The real tragedy here is that members come here looking for advice, you spew your regurgitated rhetoric to them, giving them false information on a sleuth of topics and the other 90% of us here just shake our heads in disbelief. I have never seen a bigger "Know it all" in the 13 years I've been here. You have officially became Jon Glen II.... The original tool bag. Hopefully members will do their due diligence and take anything you say with a grain of salt.

I'm off this topic and done with you.

Mikec7z

well, i can give you a list of members who have confirmed my limp mode on stock tune, stock vehicles... that was the first thing nicD said i was lying about, since i could not explain it to him in perfect terms, i was a "liar" on that episode. A troll, etc etc. Other shops gave me the benefit of the doubt and helped me solve what was going on, and knew i was not a world class tuner, i was a guy with a problem with my stock tune car, and did not want to lose my stock tune and warranty. And they also observed i could do it to ANY stock tune z06 i got into. They were helpful...

NicD was quite the opposite, might have even got me temporarily banned from the forum along the way as i defended my problem was real that he "knew was a lie".

He even posted a meme calling me Satan I would like to see what happens if I posted a meme calling NicD satan, how he would react

Then, on another episode, some folks who own shops and create fueling kits, see that a turbo car makes 840 hp at the wheels with the stock in tank pump. Thats cool huh?! So they post about it on the forum to help the community explore a new avenue, and NicD tells them they are liars too. (its in the last thread i linked, but here it is again)
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ull-e85-3.html

A lot of liars that need punished and reprimanded... good thing NicD and his parrot posse are all here to help administer justice to "Satan and his evil followers, who spread lies, and are not here to help people"

Seems to be a recurring theme that any time, any one does something that NicD does not already have full understanding of, he calls them a liar.... hes very confident he knows everything.

And then if they manage to prove they are indeed correct and not lying, the insults stop and its radio silence for a while...

until the next piece of info comes out which he does not understand. And then his crusade against liars continues.

Put a PD blower on that turbo 840hp car, and you are back to 750hp at the wheels, maybe lower, lets go down to 700rwhp in sake of favoring your argument.

So then we take another in tank fuel pump which flows 20% more fuel (2019), and we put it into the same car...

(help me understand what 20% more fuel would do if we are at 700hp at the wheels?)

I'll give you a hint, its a number above 800 at the wheels. And if a person wants to go much beyond that, all they need is another in tank fuel pump, and the system can go to 12, 13, 1,400+hp at the wheels.

Yes, the 19 pump with port injection can produce 800 at the wheels, especially if its a 50 50 mix of e85 and 93-94, and the car's exhaust is de-restricted (norcal pipes or LT headers) and COT is fully disabled, and blowers are ported VS not ported and only spun hard creating more heat.... and if you have a great tuner who knows what he is doing.

PART of the reason the shops are running out of fuel on the lt5 blower is because it is harder to spin vs the 1.7 or 2300, so more parasitic loss in power to the rear wheels, but that is not the full reason. Part of it is also they dont have their cars completely dialed in yet, and their tuners dont have the confidence to tinker while on the edge of fueling (and i get that, but it does not mean its NOT possible.) Part of it is vehicle components and how easily the air flow through the engine and exhaust, without restrictions. Part of it is heat management which affects what timing can be ran, etc.

"lies! die satan!"

rbartick

Please post the list, better yet how about posting a poll? I haven't seen reports of this issue from anyone besides you, and that includes forum vendors and sponsor shops. I'm at sea level and I haven't run into this issue.

Mikec7z

how about I pm you the list, since the people have lemon cases going on?

thats the best I can offer.

And im not interested in seeing the poll of people who cant figure out how to do it, after ive explained how to do it many times. I need not think any less of anyone's intelligence/incompetence to follow simple directions.

It happens to every car, i have not driven 1 car i cant do it to, same with my friend, same with our friends who we mandated they do it.

I dont know how many times i have to explain... EVERY z06 c7 CAR except 19's.

Hopefully it sticks this time. The fact that you have not done it, does not lead me to admire your car... it leads me to think the opposite about its driver... if indeed you have "tried" to do what ive explained needs to be done, and failed to achieve limp mode.

Goodluck.