When Titans Collide: The GT2 RS vs the 2019 ZR1
01-06-2018, 10:28 PM
#281
Melting Slicks
In terms of production, Ferrari is, AFAIK, the only major manufacturer to artificially limit production.
Their production numbers is not based on demand (which far exceeds what rolls out of the factory doors in Maranello).
There are several reasons for this.
A) Ferrari wants to maintain control of pricing.
B) Owners (who are a powerful lobby) do not want Ferraris flooding the market and driving down prices on used cars.
C) Ferraris have always been a rare sight on the roads. This adds to the mystique, branding, and exclusivity the company wants to project.
D) Until Sergio came along, Ferrari history of building street cars was all about building enough to support their racing program (especially F1). This Racing First, Selling Cars Second is the opposite of every other manufacturer. The practice goes back to the old man, Enzo Ferrari, who founded the company as a race team originally.
BTW, here is the latest info on Ferrari production goals (note going over 10k means an SUV will join the line-up):
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2017/12/...Exist-7742440/
Their production numbers is not based on demand (which far exceeds what rolls out of the factory doors in Maranello).
There are several reasons for this.
A) Ferrari wants to maintain control of pricing.
B) Owners (who are a powerful lobby) do not want Ferraris flooding the market and driving down prices on used cars.
C) Ferraris have always been a rare sight on the roads. This adds to the mystique, branding, and exclusivity the company wants to project.
D) Until Sergio came along, Ferrari history of building street cars was all about building enough to support their racing program (especially F1). This Racing First, Selling Cars Second is the opposite of every other manufacturer. The practice goes back to the old man, Enzo Ferrari, who founded the company as a race team originally.
BTW, here is the latest info on Ferrari production goals (note going over 10k means an SUV will join the line-up):
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2017/12/...Exist-7742440/
When Land Rover is printing money, Porsche's SUVs are basically the only things keeping that company afloat, Bentley and Lamborghini have trucks either out or imminently to market and both Rolls Royce and Aston Martin have SUVs in development Ferrari simply had a come to Jesus moment.
On the sports car side all is not well. The FF/Lusso is a disaster. Sales are deservedly awful and a reflection of the vehicle's simply wretched looks.
The California is not taken seriously which is something even the characteristically blunt Marchionne has admitted saying recently that the California, "Is the one car that, from an identity standpoint, has the hardest time of seeing itself as a full-blown Ferrari." I would agree. Friend of mine had one and we were both shocked at the cliff dive depreciation the thing had taken when he went to sell it.
Funny enough, Marchionne added that, "A lot of people buy a Lamborghini because they can’t get their hands on a Ferrari." I would disagree with that. A lot of people have said the Huracan is better than a comparable Ferrari. See Randy Pobst's test of the car for example. Artificially limiting production is not something Ferrari can continue to afford with the way the competition is multiplying.
Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche, Corvette, Acura, Nissan, Dodge, Ford, Audi, Aston and Bentley are now real problems for the marque.
Three examples from that list are Nissan's GT-R. If you spend some time on the GT-R forums you will find owners who have come from Ferraris. Worse, the Ferrari game is run in part by strong sales of their used cars. When cars like a new GT-R become viable alternatives to used Ferraris there is a problem for this scheme. Same goes for the NSX which can also present just such an alternative. So too can an Audi R8. Check those sites for just how many members got tired of Ferrari's games and left never to return.
When like Ferrari you are selling about 8,600 news cars a year an 860 car move becomes a double-digit event. Marchionne may not think much of Lamborghini's customers but a big part of the impetus for his comment is that it is not lost on him that Lamborghini sold a record 3,457 cars in 2016.
Worse still is McLaren which has an even great range. That company's rise has been just meteoric. They sold 1,654 cars in 2015. In 2016 that number nearly doubled to 3,286.
Just those too marques combined are closing fast on Ferrari's sales figures and in the process siphoning off a fair number of their real and potential buyers.
Don't think Ferrari hasn't noticed.
Add in Porsche which with its 911 GT2 RS, for which they have not set a production cap, and you have en even more worrisome situation afoot for Ferrari's sports cars. The GT2 RS's price point reaches well into 488 GTB territory and represents potentially 1,000+ people not looking at either a new or used 488 which is the heart and soul of Ferrari sales. Again, when you are dealing in already low volumes this is a big problem. So Marchionne is branching out.
To be sure, the increased sports car competition is not the only problem. As previously mentioned, he cannot continue to look the other way while other luxury marques rake in big profits on SUVs.
But make no mistake, Ferrari's sales of new and used cars is now under considerable pressure from multiple credible sources.
01-06-2018, 10:33 PM
#282
Team Owner
"A factor of at least 10X more significant here!"
01-06-2018, 10:56 PM
#284
Team Owner
01-06-2018, 11:01 PM
#285
Melting Slicks
As a pure enthusiast I would rather pick winners.
Car and Driver has tested four of them. The 2007 ran a 3:05.8. A base 2007 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6. You don’t even want to know the disgraceful price gap Porsche evinced in taking that embarrassing loss by their flagship car.
A 2011 911 Turbo S then ran a 2:57.5. Impressive to be sure. Anytime you can get below three minutes on that track you are really moving. It’s just that the 2011 Z06 ran a 2:53.5.
Feel free to reread that sentence.
At a staggering four seconds slower the poor Turbo S literally couldn’t tell which way the Z06 went.
A 2014 Turbo S then ran a 2:51.2. Forget for a moment that its time was easily defeated by a 2015 Camaro Z/28 and consider that unfortunately for the Turbo S an older 2012 ZR1 put up a 2:50.7.
The last Turbo S, a 2017 costing $192,210 as tested ran a 2:46.8. It would not have remotely threatened a 2015 Z06 ($100,245) which ran a 2:44.6. So yes, more than two seconds faster.
By the way, it seems that you have lost the plot. Even if you could find a 911 Turbo S that could defeat a Z06’s time it still does not address my point which is that there isn’t a single 911 that cost less than a Vette than can defeat one around a track. In contrast, the Vette has demonstrated repeatedly that it can easily reach 2-3 times beyond its price point to disembowel a Porsche. One of these things represents engineering excellence. The other does not.
Again, we are having a conversation about whether or not a new car, the ZR1, can do in a car costing nearly 3x its price. That is a conversation that should never be legitimate for any marque and yet for the Corvette it not only actually is but is considered normal.
Obviously not. Now you are actually reinforcing my point that no lesser priced car can outrun a Corvette. Same goes intra for Corvette to Corvette. So no, the GS, for example, cannot hope to outrun a Z06 and CD’s Lightning Lap results easily prove the obvious there.
I can find a number of examples of Corvettes on that list that outran more expensive 911s. For example, both the 2007 911 Turbo and the 2009 Carrera S were soundly outclassed by the 2007 base Corvette Z51 which was more than 2 seconds faster than both those Porsches. You asked for base to base well there's that plus base to top.
Now, easy stuff, find me ONE 911. Just one, that cost less than the comparable Vette that it defeated.
Take your time. I’ll wait.
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01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
#286
Le Mans Master
Anyway - like I said good news for the Vette that Ringtime was! ;)
You always know a guy has lost an argument when he scurries to move the goalposts. OK. Since we aren’t living in North America and you went there then show me resale values for each of the countries you mentioned. As I did, make sure your source is an industry standard that can provide comparative data for the two cars. If you don’t have one then we can all see just how desperate you are.
Base to base implies a 370 hp 911 against a 460 hp Corvette. How do you think that would end on a track? Top of the line current is the Z06 against the 911 Turbo S and you should reread the Car and Driver Lightning Lap list to see how that worked out.
As a pure enthusiast I would rather pick winners.
The last eight years huh? Perhaps you should reread Car and Driver’s Lighting Lap records.
Car and Driver has tested four of them. The 2007 ran a 3:05.8. A base 2007 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6. You don’t even want to know the disgraceful price gap Porsche evinced in taking that embarrassing loss by their flagship car.
A 2011 911 Turbo S then ran a 2:57.5. Impressive to be sure. Anytime you can get below three minutes on that track you are really moving. It’s just that the 2011 Z06 ran a 2:53.5.
Feel free to reread that sentence.
At a staggering four seconds slower the poor Turbo S literally couldn’t tell which way the Z06 went.
A 2014 Turbo S then ran a 2:51.2. Forget for a moment that its time was easily defeated by a 2015 Camaro Z/28 and consider that unfortunately for the Turbo S an older 2012 ZR1 put up a 2:50.7.
The last Turbo S, a 2017 costing $192,210 as tested ran a 2:46.8. It would not have remotely threatened a 2015 Z06 ($100,245) which ran a 2:44.6. So yes, more than two seconds faster.
By the way, it seems that you have lost the plot. Even if you could find a 911 Turbo S that could defeat a Z06’s time it still does not address my point which is that there isn’t a single 911 that cost less than a Vette than can defeat one around a track. In contrast, the Vette has demonstrated repeatedly that it can easily reach 2-3 times beyond its price point to disembowel a Porsche. One of these things represents engineering excellence. The other does not.
Again, we are having a conversation about whether or not a new car, the ZR1, can do in a car costing nearly 3x its price. That is a conversation that should never be legitimate for any marque and yet for the Corvette it not only actually is but is considered normal.
Obviously not. Now you are actually reinforcing my point that no lesser priced car can outrun a Corvette. Same goes intra for Corvette to Corvette. So no, the GS, for example, cannot hope to outrun a Z06 and CD’s Lightning Lap results easily prove the obvious there.
I can find a number of examples of Corvettes on that list that outran more expensive 911s. For example, both the 2007 911 Turbo and the 2009 Carrera S were soundly outclassed by the 2007 base Corvette Z51 which was more than 2 seconds faster than both those Porsches. You asked for base to base well there's that plus base to top.
Now, easy stuff, find me ONE 911. Just one, that cost less than the comparable Vette that it defeated.
Take your time. I’ll wait.
Base to base implies a 370 hp 911 against a 460 hp Corvette. How do you think that would end on a track? Top of the line current is the Z06 against the 911 Turbo S and you should reread the Car and Driver Lightning Lap list to see how that worked out.
As a pure enthusiast I would rather pick winners.
The last eight years huh? Perhaps you should reread Car and Driver’s Lighting Lap records.
Car and Driver has tested four of them. The 2007 ran a 3:05.8. A base 2007 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6. You don’t even want to know the disgraceful price gap Porsche evinced in taking that embarrassing loss by their flagship car.
A 2011 911 Turbo S then ran a 2:57.5. Impressive to be sure. Anytime you can get below three minutes on that track you are really moving. It’s just that the 2011 Z06 ran a 2:53.5.
Feel free to reread that sentence.
At a staggering four seconds slower the poor Turbo S literally couldn’t tell which way the Z06 went.
A 2014 Turbo S then ran a 2:51.2. Forget for a moment that its time was easily defeated by a 2015 Camaro Z/28 and consider that unfortunately for the Turbo S an older 2012 ZR1 put up a 2:50.7.
The last Turbo S, a 2017 costing $192,210 as tested ran a 2:46.8. It would not have remotely threatened a 2015 Z06 ($100,245) which ran a 2:44.6. So yes, more than two seconds faster.
By the way, it seems that you have lost the plot. Even if you could find a 911 Turbo S that could defeat a Z06’s time it still does not address my point which is that there isn’t a single 911 that cost less than a Vette than can defeat one around a track. In contrast, the Vette has demonstrated repeatedly that it can easily reach 2-3 times beyond its price point to disembowel a Porsche. One of these things represents engineering excellence. The other does not.
Again, we are having a conversation about whether or not a new car, the ZR1, can do in a car costing nearly 3x its price. That is a conversation that should never be legitimate for any marque and yet for the Corvette it not only actually is but is considered normal.
Obviously not. Now you are actually reinforcing my point that no lesser priced car can outrun a Corvette. Same goes intra for Corvette to Corvette. So no, the GS, for example, cannot hope to outrun a Z06 and CD’s Lightning Lap results easily prove the obvious there.
I can find a number of examples of Corvettes on that list that outran more expensive 911s. For example, both the 2007 911 Turbo and the 2009 Carrera S were soundly outclassed by the 2007 base Corvette Z51 which was more than 2 seconds faster than both those Porsches. You asked for base to base well there's that plus base to top.
Now, easy stuff, find me ONE 911. Just one, that cost less than the comparable Vette that it defeated.
Take your time. I’ll wait.
It always was Broken!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-06-2018 at 11:20 PM.
01-07-2018, 01:11 AM
#287
BTW, when Fiat took over Chrysler, I recall Sergio saying something to the effect the Jeep Grand Cherokee's chassis was so good it needed to be shared across brands.
We'll see what the Ferrari SUV finally ends up as.
Artificially limiting production is not something Ferrari can continue to afford with the way the competition is multiplying.
Ferrari has much internal politics, it makes nothing very easy with so many competing interests at play.
Three examples from that list are Nissan's GT-R. If you spend some time on the GT-R forums you will find owners who have come from Ferraris. Worse, the Ferrari game is run in part by strong sales of their used cars. When cars like a new GT-R become viable alternatives to used Ferraris there is a problem for this scheme. Same goes for the NSX which can also present just such an alternative. So too can an Audi R8. Check those sites for just how many members got tired of Ferrari's games and left never to return.
What "Ferrari games" are you referring to?
01-07-2018, 03:08 AM
#288
Bwright, do you think Ferrari is able to make a profit selling the number of cars they are currently producing? Is this why they are having to make SUVs?
Of course the brand itself is hugely profitable, so if they do lose money selling cars they still profit from the brand itself.
This is speculation on my part, but I don't think that new supercar makers like McClaren and new supercars from established companies like Ford and Porsche are necessarily going to hurt Ferrari sales. The world economy is growing exponentially and markets for luxury products are always expanding. There may be more supercar makers taking a slice of the pie, but the pie is getting bigger and bigger.
Of course the brand itself is hugely profitable, so if they do lose money selling cars they still profit from the brand itself.
This is speculation on my part, but I don't think that new supercar makers like McClaren and new supercars from established companies like Ford and Porsche are necessarily going to hurt Ferrari sales. The world economy is growing exponentially and markets for luxury products are always expanding. There may be more supercar makers taking a slice of the pie, but the pie is getting bigger and bigger.
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sunsalem (01-07-2018)
01-07-2018, 07:48 AM
#289
Originally Posted by johnglenntwo
If TECH can (finally) keep a 911 on that track!
It always was Broken!
It always was Broken!
The problem is that most unskilled drivers jump off the gas in a panic situation which is the absolute wrong thing to do. The electronics just help compensate for an unskilled driver behind the wheel. You could also say the same thing about a front mid engine car with 650 lb/ft of torque.
The reason they are moving away from that design on their race cars is because the design is harder on rear tires and in a modern racing world where everything is so tightly controlled by the rules that makes the difference between being competitive or not.
01-07-2018, 10:45 AM
#290
Le Mans Master
Thanks for reminding me! Neutral is the operative word here.
Positioned in front of the rear axle
https://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsan...turesandspecs/
eDiff. Controls "Neutral" too. No reason to compromise anymore in any pure sports car! Weight over rear tires too...everybodies going there! Simplicity of engineering - start with perfect!
The 911 and the Z06's nannies are now standard equipment switched on chassis control (650 TQ)(ABS CCB
)!
He wasn't playing with slip during that Fast Ring run! If it was masterly doable the 997 GT2 RS would have done it! Not even close!
https://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsan...turesandspecs/
eDiff. Controls "Neutral" too. No reason to compromise anymore in any pure sports car! Weight over rear tires too...everybodies going there! Simplicity of engineering - start with perfect!
The 911 and the Z06's nannies are now standard equipment switched on chassis control (650 TQ)(ABS CCB
)! He wasn't playing with slip during that Fast Ring run! If it was masterly doable the 997 GT2 RS would have done it! Not even close!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-07-2018 at 11:17 AM.
01-07-2018, 02:24 PM
#291
Team Owner
You always know a guy has lost an argument when he scurries to move the goalposts. OK. Since we aren’t living in North America and you went there then show me resale values for each of the countries you mentioned. As I did, make sure your source is an industry standard that can provide comparative data for the two cars. If you don’t have one then we can all see just how desperate you are.
Base to base implies a 370 hp 911 against a 460 hp Corvette. How do you think that would end on a track? Top of the line current is the Z06 against the 911 Turbo S and you should reread the Car and Driver Lightning Lap list to see how that worked out.
As a pure enthusiast I would rather pick winners.
The last eight years huh? Perhaps you should reread Car and Driver’s Lighting Lap records.
Car and Driver has tested four of them. The 2007 ran a 3:05.8. A base 2007 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6. You don’t even want to know the disgraceful price gap Porsche evinced in taking that embarrassing loss by their flagship car.
A 2011 911 Turbo S then ran a 2:57.5. Impressive to be sure. Anytime you can get below three minutes on that track you are really moving. It’s just that the 2011 Z06 ran a 2:53.5.
Feel free to reread that sentence.
At a staggering four seconds slower the poor Turbo S literally couldn’t tell which way the Z06 went.
A 2014 Turbo S then ran a 2:51.2. Forget for a moment that its time was easily defeated by a 2015 Camaro Z/28 and consider that unfortunately for the Turbo S an older 2012 ZR1 put up a 2:50.7.
The last Turbo S, a 2017 costing $192,210 as tested ran a 2:46.8. It would not have remotely threatened a 2015 Z06 ($100,245) which ran a 2:44.6. So yes, more than two seconds faster.
By the way, it seems that you have lost the plot. Even if you could find a 911 Turbo S that could defeat a Z06’s time it still does not address my point which is that there isn’t a single 911 that cost less than a Vette than can defeat one around a track. In contrast, the Vette has demonstrated repeatedly that it can easily reach 2-3 times beyond its price point to disembowel a Porsche. One of these things represents engineering excellence. The other does not.
Again, we are having a conversation about whether or not a new car, the ZR1, can do in a car costing nearly 3x its price. That is a conversation that should never be legitimate for any marque and yet for the Corvette it not only actually is but is considered normal.
Obviously not. Now you are actually reinforcing my point that no lesser priced car can outrun a Corvette. Same goes intra for Corvette to Corvette. So no, the GS, for example, cannot hope to outrun a Z06 and CD’s Lightning Lap results easily prove the obvious there.
I can find a number of examples of Corvettes on that list that outran more expensive 911s. For example, both the 2007 911 Turbo and the 2009 Carrera S were soundly outclassed by the 2007 base Corvette Z51 which was more than 2 seconds faster than both those Porsches. You asked for base to base well there's that plus base to top.
Now, easy stuff, find me ONE 911. Just one, that cost less than the comparable Vette that it defeated.
Take your time. I’ll wait.
Base to base implies a 370 hp 911 against a 460 hp Corvette. How do you think that would end on a track? Top of the line current is the Z06 against the 911 Turbo S and you should reread the Car and Driver Lightning Lap list to see how that worked out.
As a pure enthusiast I would rather pick winners.
The last eight years huh? Perhaps you should reread Car and Driver’s Lighting Lap records.
Car and Driver has tested four of them. The 2007 ran a 3:05.8. A base 2007 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6. You don’t even want to know the disgraceful price gap Porsche evinced in taking that embarrassing loss by their flagship car.
A 2011 911 Turbo S then ran a 2:57.5. Impressive to be sure. Anytime you can get below three minutes on that track you are really moving. It’s just that the 2011 Z06 ran a 2:53.5.
Feel free to reread that sentence.
At a staggering four seconds slower the poor Turbo S literally couldn’t tell which way the Z06 went.
A 2014 Turbo S then ran a 2:51.2. Forget for a moment that its time was easily defeated by a 2015 Camaro Z/28 and consider that unfortunately for the Turbo S an older 2012 ZR1 put up a 2:50.7.
The last Turbo S, a 2017 costing $192,210 as tested ran a 2:46.8. It would not have remotely threatened a 2015 Z06 ($100,245) which ran a 2:44.6. So yes, more than two seconds faster.
By the way, it seems that you have lost the plot. Even if you could find a 911 Turbo S that could defeat a Z06’s time it still does not address my point which is that there isn’t a single 911 that cost less than a Vette than can defeat one around a track. In contrast, the Vette has demonstrated repeatedly that it can easily reach 2-3 times beyond its price point to disembowel a Porsche. One of these things represents engineering excellence. The other does not.
Again, we are having a conversation about whether or not a new car, the ZR1, can do in a car costing nearly 3x its price. That is a conversation that should never be legitimate for any marque and yet for the Corvette it not only actually is but is considered normal.
Obviously not. Now you are actually reinforcing my point that no lesser priced car can outrun a Corvette. Same goes intra for Corvette to Corvette. So no, the GS, for example, cannot hope to outrun a Z06 and CD’s Lightning Lap results easily prove the obvious there.
I can find a number of examples of Corvettes on that list that outran more expensive 911s. For example, both the 2007 911 Turbo and the 2009 Carrera S were soundly outclassed by the 2007 base Corvette Z51 which was more than 2 seconds faster than both those Porsches. You asked for base to base well there's that plus base to top.
Now, easy stuff, find me ONE 911. Just one, that cost less than the comparable Vette that it defeated.
Take your time. I’ll wait.
2) Since when is C&D Lightning Lap the "industry standard"?
Do manufacturers scramble to get their sportscars entered into this competition? How's this, the Nurburgring is the "industry standard" and for reference here's a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eife_lap_times note, in the top 30 spots 2 are occupied by Corvettes and 6 are 911 including the #1 position, I need not say more on the subject on which is a better track car, the numbers don't lie.3) I've said many times that for the money you can't beat a Corvette but once again you're narrowing your scope to win your argument. Do you think some rich Arab oil baron GAF about price?
01-07-2018, 02:46 PM
#292
Team Owner
Hey I'll tell you what, since this thread is about a GT2 RS and ZR1, why don't we just leave it at that. All you kool aid drinkers who seem to think that the ZR1 will top the GT's time put your money where your mouth is.
We can debate all day long which line is better, Corvette or 911 with no clear winner so let's let the 'Ring time settle it....6:47 seconds is the time to beat, the gauntlet has been thrown.
Now I'm sure some of you will reply to this post with the usual bs that has nothing to do with anything simply because you're blinded, biased and narrow minded but hey, 6:47, that's all I need to say.
We can debate all day long which line is better, Corvette or 911 with no clear winner so let's let the 'Ring time settle it....6:47 seconds is the time to beat, the gauntlet has been thrown.
Now I'm sure some of you will reply to this post with the usual bs that has nothing to do with anything simply because you're blinded, biased and narrow minded but hey, 6:47, that's all I need to say.
01-07-2018, 02:58 PM
#293
So you compare GM (multiple brands under the GM name) to Porsche, one brand.
This is why arguing with some people is a useless endeavor.
Let me help you out here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#2903932a76b0
If you have been dying to find out whether Toyota defended its title of World’s Largest Automaker in 2016, or whether Volkswagen fulfilled its dream of becoming the world’s largest, you now have the official answer: This year, the World’s Largest Automaker is whichever of the two you want it to be. Volkswagen has beaten Toyota. Or maybe not.
This will be a long story, full of numbers. If your eyes glaze over already, I will let you go with the news that Volkswagen is finally ahead of Toyota -- if you believe the published numbers. If you share my perverse fetish for car counting, and if you read the rest of the story, expect your beliefs to be shaken.
Toyota today announced global sales of 10,175,000 units in 2016, and global production of 10,213,486 units. A few weeks ago, Volkswagen said it delivered 10.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2016. General Motors releases its global data only quarterly. Until it releases results for the final quarter of 2016 on February 7, we need to estimate, so GM is out of contention.
In terms of production, the two main contenders are separated by nearly 100,000 units. This is a surprising development.
In terms of sales, the distance is even greater. Oddly enough, the World’s Largest Automaker title is not bestowed based on how many vehicles an automaker has sold. Global automakers are ranked on how many cars they have produced. The ranking is done by OICA, the Paris-based International Organization of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers institution that is nearly as old as the automobile. OICA has been maintaining these stats longer than even I can remember. OICA is the go-to source for Wikipedia, and for statistical number crunchers from Germany’s Satistisches Bundesamt to the United Nations. OICA has its reasons for ranking automakers by production instead of sales, we will touch on some below. For now, let’s simply remember that the world’s automakers themselves do not trust their own sales statistics enough to be measured by them.
If we want to crown the World’s Largest Automaker according to the official OICA rulebook, then we need to rank them by production. That brings a problem: Toyota publishes monthly production statistics, Volkswagen does not. Volkswagen publishes “deliveries,” a distinction that sometimes is lost on the harried reporter.
What are "deliveries?" A few days ago, I discussed this matter with Leslie Bothge, Volkswagen Group’s Wolfsburg-based spokesperson for sales, production and procurement. I told her that so far, I have used Volkswagen’s delivery data in lieu of the missing production data, and if that’s wrong, would she be able to produce a production number? Ms. Bothge said that deliveries and production “differ slightly,” because after all, “a car that was produced in 2016 may only have been delivered in 2017.” And no, citing internal policies, she would not provide a production number.
Porsche falls under VW Ag group of companies which also include Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley and Ducati, just to name a few....perhaps you've heard of them.
This is why arguing with some people is a useless endeavor.
Let me help you out here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#2903932a76b0
If you have been dying to find out whether Toyota defended its title of World’s Largest Automaker in 2016, or whether Volkswagen fulfilled its dream of becoming the world’s largest, you now have the official answer: This year, the World’s Largest Automaker is whichever of the two you want it to be. Volkswagen has beaten Toyota. Or maybe not.
This will be a long story, full of numbers. If your eyes glaze over already, I will let you go with the news that Volkswagen is finally ahead of Toyota -- if you believe the published numbers. If you share my perverse fetish for car counting, and if you read the rest of the story, expect your beliefs to be shaken.
Toyota today announced global sales of 10,175,000 units in 2016, and global production of 10,213,486 units. A few weeks ago, Volkswagen said it delivered 10.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2016. General Motors releases its global data only quarterly. Until it releases results for the final quarter of 2016 on February 7, we need to estimate, so GM is out of contention.
In terms of production, the two main contenders are separated by nearly 100,000 units. This is a surprising development.
In terms of sales, the distance is even greater. Oddly enough, the World’s Largest Automaker title is not bestowed based on how many vehicles an automaker has sold. Global automakers are ranked on how many cars they have produced. The ranking is done by OICA, the Paris-based International Organization of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers institution that is nearly as old as the automobile. OICA has been maintaining these stats longer than even I can remember. OICA is the go-to source for Wikipedia, and for statistical number crunchers from Germany’s Satistisches Bundesamt to the United Nations. OICA has its reasons for ranking automakers by production instead of sales, we will touch on some below. For now, let’s simply remember that the world’s automakers themselves do not trust their own sales statistics enough to be measured by them.
If we want to crown the World’s Largest Automaker according to the official OICA rulebook, then we need to rank them by production. That brings a problem: Toyota publishes monthly production statistics, Volkswagen does not. Volkswagen publishes “deliveries,” a distinction that sometimes is lost on the harried reporter.
What are "deliveries?" A few days ago, I discussed this matter with Leslie Bothge, Volkswagen Group’s Wolfsburg-based spokesperson for sales, production and procurement. I told her that so far, I have used Volkswagen’s delivery data in lieu of the missing production data, and if that’s wrong, would she be able to produce a production number? Ms. Bothge said that deliveries and production “differ slightly,” because after all, “a car that was produced in 2016 may only have been delivered in 2017.” And no, citing internal policies, she would not provide a production number.
Porsche falls under VW Ag group of companies which also include Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley and Ducati, just to name a few....perhaps you've heard of them.
1. Are you playing bait and switch on me? Post#265
So Porsche builds a car for the world, GM doesn't...hmmmmm.
And now you are replying with a copy and paste with (Toyota of all things… C7 vs 911 remember?) to prove what? What in the world does your cut and paste does with the thread at hand? Other than inform me Porsche belongs to VW???
Would a compare brand to brand between CHEVROLET and PORSCHE international numbers help your case!? Chevrolet global 3.7 million vehicles sold… NOT!
You know.. I am starting to agree with Bwright; your insistence on pursuing old age baseless perceptions of the Corvette short of both factual data or experienced anecdotes does seem as fruitless “flares shooting”
2. Bad on me also for falling in the bait… The point I was making in reply to you is that sales number at hand, GM and Chevrolet are superior to WV and Porsche and plenty capable of meeting international needs, tastes, and requirements.
I should have made my point by simply disproving YOUR SPURIOUS PERCEPTION (still awaiting for facts) that Corvette is inferior because it does not sell to escargot heaters in the EU??
So, for the last time here it is:
Corvette world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 40689
MY2017 (w/plant shutdown): 32782
911 world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 32,409
MY2017: (TBD-tracking): approx 29000
macmulkincorvette.com/2017/06/12/2017-corvette-production-numbers-released-bowling-green-corvette-assembly-plant/
flatsixes.com/porsche-news/porsche-worldwide-sales-q1-2017/
http://www.thedrive.com/flat-six-soc...rowth-in-china
Is this clear enough evidence? that
Corvette demand is superior to 911s demand PERIOD.
AND your characterization of Corvette’s appeal limited to “poor/this is all I can afford” Americans COMPLETELY BASELESS.
And yes
This is why arguing with some people is a useless endeavor.
Tchuss,
P.S
Oh, almost forgot, just to show you I can cherry pick too!
VW 2016 international sales (out of home region):
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...lly-by-region/
GM 2016 International sales (out of home region):
http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Medi...ales-Chart.pdf
VW: 6.236M
GM: 6.335M
So point is really made now but if you reaaally want to continue this “sales” conversation please solve me these two riddles:
1. What would happen to Corvette sales in the EU if they stopped “tariffing” the car 40%
2. What would happen to 911 sales if the US stopped allowing “dumping” the 911
Capish? :-)
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-07-2018 at 03:28 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Bwright (02-15-2018)
01-07-2018, 03:05 PM
#294
Hey I'll tell you what, since this thread is about a GT2 RS and ZR1, why don't we just leave it at that. All you kool aid drinkers who seem to think that the ZR1 will top the GT's time put your money where your mouth is.
We can debate all day long which line is better, Corvette or 911 with no clear winner so let's let the 'Ring time settle it....6:47 seconds is the time to beat, the gauntlet has been thrown.
Now I'm sure some of you will reply to this post with the usual bs that has nothing to do with anything simply because you're blinded, biased and narrow minded but hey, 6:47, that's all I need to say.
We can debate all day long which line is better, Corvette or 911 with no clear winner so let's let the 'Ring time settle it....6:47 seconds is the time to beat, the gauntlet has been thrown.
Now I'm sure some of you will reply to this post with the usual bs that has nothing to do with anything simply because you're blinded, biased and narrow minded but hey, 6:47, that's all I need to say.
WAIT... OH you mean the stock ergh...GT2RS stripped car!??? in German territory!!.......................
Is there an alibi for home chea... I mean advantage...!?
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-07-2018 at 03:30 PM.
01-07-2018, 03:06 PM
#295
Le Mans Master
Good one! ;)
So, for the last time here it is:
Corvette world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 40689
MY2017 (w/plant shutdown): 32782
911 world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 32,409
MY2017: (TBD-tracking): approx 29000
Ouch!!!!
Corvette world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 40689
MY2017 (w/plant shutdown): 32782
911 world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 32,409
MY2017: (TBD-tracking): approx 29000
Ouch!!!!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-07-2018 at 03:07 PM.
01-07-2018, 03:52 PM
#296
Back to the comparison, I agree if the ZR1 gets within 10 seconds it's wins the ring test just because the ZR1 will retain a stereo and and climate control. And by the way, did anyone in this thread get a allocation for a GT2RS? I bet you didn't delete the stereo or air. The other thing is at this point the real cost to obtaining a GT2RS could be between 800-900k. And speaking of C5s Hopefully P. Long can hustle this new GT2RS around Miller's outer loop closer to what my C5 can do, he was 5 seconds off my pace with the last 997.2 GT2RS. I was there that day
You cannot order the A/C Delete (on the web site with a note it could be further) until February 2018.
The stripping work such as A/C, Radio/Infotainment delete and one other I can't recall is not done "in house" but passed to Weissach (basically a subcontractor).
To your point on real order ability of the deletes...the various disclaimers on the A/C delete are really hilarious but the most funny one is the Italian one.. translated "Do not recommend for summer driving"
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-07-2018 at 03:53 PM.
The following users liked this post:
johnglenntwo (01-08-2018)
01-07-2018, 05:49 PM
#297
Team Owner
So, two things:
1. Are you playing bait and switch on me? Post#265
It is YOU that introduced the four words Porsche GM innuendo... I suppose to make the silly point Porsche knows how to make world cars and GM/Chevrolet does not.
And now you are replying with a copy and paste with (Toyota of all things… C7 vs 911 remember?) to prove what? What in the world does your cut and paste does with the thread at hand? Other than inform me Porsche belongs to VW???
Would a compare brand to brand between CHEVROLET and PORSCHE international numbers help your case!? Chevrolet global 3.7 million vehicles sold… NOT!
You know.. I am starting to agree with Bwright; your insistence on pursuing old age baseless perceptions of the Corvette short of both factual data or experienced anecdotes does seem as fruitless “flares shooting”
2. Bad on me also for falling in the bait… The point I was making in reply to you is that sales number at hand, GM and Chevrolet are superior to WV and Porsche and plenty capable of meeting international needs, tastes, and requirements.
I should have made my point by simply disproving YOUR SPURIOUS PERCEPTION (still awaiting for facts) that Corvette is inferior because it does not sell to escargot heaters in the EU??
So, for the last time here it is:
Corvette world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 40689
MY2017 (w/plant shutdown): 32782
911 world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 32,409
MY2017: (TBD-tracking): approx 29000
macmulkincorvette.com/2017/06/12/2017-corvette-production-numbers-released-bowling-green-corvette-assembly-plant/
flatsixes.com/porsche-news/porsche-worldwide-sales-q1-2017/
http://www.thedrive.com/flat-six-soc...rowth-in-china
Is this clear enough evidence? that
Corvette demand is superior to 911s demand PERIOD.
AND your characterization of Corvette’s appeal limited to “poor/this is all I can afford” Americans COMPLETELY BASELESS.
And yes
FULLY AGREE!
Tchuss,
P.S
Oh, almost forgot, just to show you I can cherry pick too!
VW 2016 international sales (out of home region):
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...lly-by-region/
GM 2016 International sales (out of home region):
http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Medi...ales-Chart.pdf
VW: 6.236M
GM: 6.335M
So point is really made now but if you reaaally want to continue this “sales” conversation please solve me these two riddles:
1. What would happen to Corvette sales in the EU if they stopped “tariffing” the car 40%
2. What would happen to 911 sales if the US stopped allowing “dumping” the 911
Capish? :-)
1. Are you playing bait and switch on me? Post#265
It is YOU that introduced the four words Porsche GM innuendo... I suppose to make the silly point Porsche knows how to make world cars and GM/Chevrolet does not.
And now you are replying with a copy and paste with (Toyota of all things… C7 vs 911 remember?) to prove what? What in the world does your cut and paste does with the thread at hand? Other than inform me Porsche belongs to VW???
Would a compare brand to brand between CHEVROLET and PORSCHE international numbers help your case!? Chevrolet global 3.7 million vehicles sold… NOT!
You know.. I am starting to agree with Bwright; your insistence on pursuing old age baseless perceptions of the Corvette short of both factual data or experienced anecdotes does seem as fruitless “flares shooting”
2. Bad on me also for falling in the bait… The point I was making in reply to you is that sales number at hand, GM and Chevrolet are superior to WV and Porsche and plenty capable of meeting international needs, tastes, and requirements.
I should have made my point by simply disproving YOUR SPURIOUS PERCEPTION (still awaiting for facts) that Corvette is inferior because it does not sell to escargot heaters in the EU??
So, for the last time here it is:
Corvette world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 40689
MY2017 (w/plant shutdown): 32782
911 world wide (TOTAL)
MY2016: 32,409
MY2017: (TBD-tracking): approx 29000
macmulkincorvette.com/2017/06/12/2017-corvette-production-numbers-released-bowling-green-corvette-assembly-plant/
flatsixes.com/porsche-news/porsche-worldwide-sales-q1-2017/
http://www.thedrive.com/flat-six-soc...rowth-in-china
Is this clear enough evidence? that
Corvette demand is superior to 911s demand PERIOD.
AND your characterization of Corvette’s appeal limited to “poor/this is all I can afford” Americans COMPLETELY BASELESS.
And yes
FULLY AGREE!
Tchuss,
P.S
Oh, almost forgot, just to show you I can cherry pick too!
VW 2016 international sales (out of home region):
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...lly-by-region/
GM 2016 International sales (out of home region):
http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Medi...ales-Chart.pdf
VW: 6.236M
GM: 6.335M
So point is really made now but if you reaaally want to continue this “sales” conversation please solve me these two riddles:
1. What would happen to Corvette sales in the EU if they stopped “tariffing” the car 40%
2. What would happen to 911 sales if the US stopped allowing “dumping” the 911
Capish? :-)
Corvette demand is more, Jezus, go re-read my arguing statement. If a 911 was the exact same price as a C7 and Porsche built just as many which car do you think would sell more? Put the GT2 RS at the exact same price as the ZR1 and which car do you think would sell more?
Wow and here I thought there was some intelligence in this section.
Last edited by themonk; 01-07-2018 at 05:51 PM.
01-07-2018, 06:53 PM
#299
Originally Posted by Destrukt
My question are the tires. Do we know which tires will be on the ZR1 for the ring o fire?!
01-08-2018, 01:25 AM
#300
Team Owner
So this is what I found out in my 911 GT2RS "stripping" research
You cannot order the A/C Delete (on the web site with a note it could be further) until February 2018.
The stripping work such as A/C, Radio/Infotainment delete and one other I can't recall is not done "in house" but passed to Weissach (basically a subcontractor).
To your point on real order ability of the deletes...the various disclaimers on the A/C delete are really hilarious but the most funny one is the Italian one.. translated "Do not recommend for summer driving"
You cannot order the A/C Delete (on the web site with a note it could be further) until February 2018.
The stripping work such as A/C, Radio/Infotainment delete and one other I can't recall is not done "in house" but passed to Weissach (basically a subcontractor).
To your point on real order ability of the deletes...the various disclaimers on the A/C delete are really hilarious but the most funny one is the Italian one.. translated "Do not recommend for summer driving"
and no radio or speaker's? Do that to a ZR1 to even the tables and the GT2RS is one cooked duck in any race!
Hell the Z06 for that much weight loss would be a challenge!
Silly Comparison here!
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 01-08-2018 at 01:26 AM.
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desmophile (01-08-2018)