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The biggest loss or gains in time I see in data are in two areas, carrying more speed through heavy braking zones and getting back to full throttle sooner. The reality is that braking from 160 MPH to 45 and from 120 MPH to 45 are very different and even if two drivers start braking at the same time and arrive at the same apex speed there is often over half a second advantage to the driver that can carry that extra 3-5 MPH through that braking zone. Throw a driver only used to slower speeds in that high HP car and they are going to struggle to carry that speed through the brake zone because it is way outside of their comfort zone and will be for a long time. Similarly, you can't just run around flat to the floor in a Z06 like you can in a Miata and being able to gauge the rear grip to get back to WOT soonest safely is going to be much harder to learn. Of course, I've never tracked anything with less than 500 HP.
Wait, what? lol, high speed braking is probably the easiest braking, especially if you have ABS as a safety net. You find your brake marker (ideally, moving forward to it, not backward) and that's about it. You have a lot more time to set everything up.
It's a hell of a lot easier than slow speed turns where you're tapping the brakes and staying on for just a second, turn in, but don't scrub too much speed. And being in a slow car makes the mistake of scrubbing too much speed far more pronounced.
Braking has to be the easiest thing to adjust for going from high hp to low hp. After a few laps you should have it down. If anything, going faster means longer brake zones, making it easier. As someone who has done it in both, often alternating sessions, braking in the GS is a joke compared to braking in the Miata with its skinny tires and very short/quick braking zones.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but but you're not finding half a second in a braking zone. A good driver to a mediocre driver might have a 100ft difference in brake markers. Half a second is bonkers to lose in the braking zone. Half a second into the braking zone to the end of the turn is the difference between a pro driver and an enthusiast. That's 7-8 seconds on a 14-16 turn track. If you did everything else the same, except brake slower, as a pro driver, I bet you'd be within 1 second of his lap times. Braking is great for passing. Braking 50ft later isn't going to make up much time.
Last edited by village idiot; 10-17-2018 at 10:26 PM.
I think your Spring Mountain story only weakens your argument about momentum cars and practicing with lower hp cars to learn. I once had a Japanese judo trainer tell me that only perfect practice makes perfect. If I got nothing else out of judo, that phase is how I try to live my life. Here is the ideal example of your friend being slightly faster than you because your line was not perfect. You could drive your car for another 10 years and not get any faster if you're not perfect on your apex lines, braking points, etc, etc. High horsepower cars (especially with no stability control) will show every weakness you have on the track since you have so much less time between corners to set up your line and get your braking perfect....not to mention throttle modulation, more lateral G's physically wearing you out, etc.
The other issue (one that nobody really talks about) is some drivers just will never be "fast" regardless of what they drive, how much they practice or how many drivers schools they attend. This is no different than a guy that bowls in a league once a week and with an additional practice day every week for the last 20 years......and his average is still 215. It is what it is.....not everybody is going to reach the pinnacle of driving talent because at some point certain drivers are fast naturally (what I call The Lucky Sperm Club).
When somebody starts talking about being a fast driver or they are at their cars limit, I often suggest this little test. Go to any commercial go kart track like K1, etc. Look at the list of the top 100 fast times for the last 30 days. If you can go out and be within 5% of the fastest time listed, you're probably part of the Lucky Sperm Club......and I hate you, lol.
all sorts of research on development and performance argue against the lucky sperm Club hypothesis. If there is such a thing, it it is more of a function of a person being gifted with single-mindedness in their Pursuits. By this I mean the person who is willing to devote all aspects of their life to one thing will, given the right set of conditions, likely develop beyond the people around him who are splitting their time and attention.
Malcolm Gladwell writes eloquently about a lot of this research in his book called Outliers. If you have any interest at all in the topic you will certainly enjoy that book. The right set of conditions need to be present along with an extremely focused work ethic. Time spent practicing ends up being the single biggest determinant of skill. In Motorsports, time equals money and that is a huge limiting factor for so many people who may have desire but not the resources to act on it.
0f course this is not to say that some people aren't born with a physical aptitude or a gift that their nearest competitor does not have. The basketball player who is 4 in taller or the boxer with phenomenal peripheral vision etc. But Senna's gift wasn't an inherent ability to drive a Formula 1 car. It was his Relentless Focus that allowed him to succeed. An example is when he divorced his newly married wife in order to devote everything to succeeding in F1. Relentless Focus combined with perhaps a gift of extreme competitiveness and being born into a wealthy Brazilian family that could actually afford to get him as much track time as he desired. Wrap that all up with a little bit of good fortune and you have a legend at the extreme end of the sport. Of course you also have a crazy man willing to do dangerous things and put other people In Harm's Way but that's another story.
sebring,lemans,Daytona,nuringburg Bonneville salt flats,etc
where have you raced????????
Did he win any of those? I'll give him credit for having the courage to race at a relatively risky track like the Nurburgring. To use an analogy Mario Mendoza played in the major leagues for several years, but he struggled to even hit .200 (batting average). So was Reuss competitive, or was he some "gentleman racer" who served as a back marker? I don't know, I'm just asking.
Did he win any of those? I'll give him credit for having the courage to race at a relatively risky track like the Nurburgring. To use an analogy Mario Mendoza played in the major leagues for several years, but he struggled to even hit .200 (batting average). So was Reuss competitive, or was he some "gentleman racer" who served as a back marker? I don't know, I'm just asking.
Wait, what? lol, high speed braking is probably the easiest braking, especially if you have ABS as a safety net. You find your brake marker (ideally, moving forward to it, not backward) and that's about it. You have a lot more time to set everything up.
It's a hell of a lot easier than slow speed turns where you're tapping the brakes and staying on for just a second, turn in, but don't scrub too much speed. And being in a slow car makes the mistake of scrubbing too much speed far more pronounced.
Braking has to be the easiest thing to adjust for going from high hp to low hp. After a few laps you should have it down. If anything, going faster means longer brake zones, making it easier. As someone who has done it in both, often alternating sessions, braking in the GS is a joke compared to braking in the Miata with its skinny tires and very short/quick braking zones.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but but you're not finding half a second in a braking zone. A good driver to a mediocre driver might have a 100ft difference in brake markers. Half a second is bonkers to lose in the braking zone. Half a second into the braking zone to the end of the turn is the difference between a pro driver and an enthusiast. That's 7-8 seconds on a 14-16 turn track. If you did everything else the same, except brake slower, as a pro driver, I bet you'd be within 1 second of his lap times. Braking is great for passing. Braking 50ft later isn't going to make up much time.
I have lots of data from different drivers that looks like this. This is braking for T1 at VIR. What you describe is nowhere near as easy in real life at high speeds. People get scared (including me) barreling in to >90 deg corners at over 150 MPH and learning not just when to brake but how to carry the most speed over the most distance takes a lot of work. You can enter that same corner at 110 for years in a Miata but when you're closing speeds are suddenly 40-50 MPH higher it's very different.
BTW, I am not insulting anyone for tracking a Miata, they're great cars and probably the best wheel to wheel out there. My point is that this misnomer that you can only go fast by learning in a slow car isn't true.
From a debrief I sent someone."So let’s start with T1 as I mentioned previously. Note the speed traces and while I did end up trail-braking a little longer and overslowing compared to you I was able to modulate the brakes better and in places I was ~3 MPH faster over the ~750 ft of the braking zone. The result is that I gained 0.6s on you in that section."
I have lots of data from different drivers that looks like this. This is braking for T1 at VIR. What you describe is nowhere near as easy in real life at high speeds. People get scared (including me) barreling in to >90 deg corners at over 150 MPH and learning not just when to brake but how to carry the most speed over the most distance takes a lot of work. You can enter that same corner at 110 for years in a Miata but when you're closing speeds are suddenly 40-50 MPH higher it's very different.
BTW, I am not insulting anyone for tracking a Miata, they're great cars and probably the best wheel to wheel out there. My point is that this misnomer that you can only go fast by learning in a slow car isn't true.
From a debrief I sent someone."So let’s start with T1 as I mentioned previously. Note the speed traces and while I did end up trail-braking a little longer and overslowing compared to you I was able to modulate the brakes better and in places I was ~3 MPH faster over the ~750 ft of the braking zone. The result is that I gained 0.6s on you in that section."
Maybe it's just me- I have absolutely no problem adjusting brake zones. I'm "only" doing 150-152 at COTA vs your 165, or 130ish at ECR (vs, say, 87 in the Miata) into a hard off camber left you have to stay tight in. You just have to start conservative and move forward. The hardest part is remembering it all. The most important thing is having the car set up for entry. Honestly, the Miata is harder because it's harder to not over brake. There is a lot less time to make adjustments and lot more lost if you over or under brake (plus, no ABS to save you/tires). See also: Karting.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the data. That is a very big difference in braking. That's going into the turn even and coming out 60 feet ahead of someone- in a single braking zone. Losing .6 sec per turn on a 14 turn track is 8-9 seconds in braking zones- the hardest place gain or lose time. Even if it's only on 1/3 of the turns, 3 seconds is a stupid amount to lose on braking.
As far as Miatas go, no one said they're "only" way to learn to drive. Slow cars are definitely a faster, cheaper and safer way to learn though. I still find more tenths in the Grand Sport by driving the Miata than by driving the GS.
Last edited by village idiot; 10-18-2018 at 09:19 AM.
Wait, what? lol, high speed braking is probably the easiest braking, especially if you have ABS as a safety net. You find your brake marker (ideally, moving forward to it, not backward) and that's about it. You have a lot more time to set everything up.
It's a hell of a lot easier than slow speed turns where you're tapping the brakes and staying on for just a second, turn in, but don't scrub too much speed. And being in a slow car makes the mistake of scrubbing too much speed far more pronounced.
Braking has to be the easiest thing to adjust for going from high hp to low hp. After a few laps you should have it down. If anything, going faster means longer brake zones, making it easier. As someone who has done it in both, often alternating sessions, braking in the GS is a joke compared to braking in the Miata with its skinny tires and very short/quick braking zones.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but but you're not finding half a second in a braking zone. A good driver to a mediocre driver might have a 100ft difference in brake markers. Half a second is bonkers to lose in the braking zone. Half a second into the braking zone to the end of the turn is the difference between a pro driver and an enthusiast. That's 7-8 seconds on a 14-16 turn track. If you did everything else the same, except brake slower, as a pro driver, I bet you'd be within 1 second of his lap times. Braking is great for passing. Braking 50ft later isn't going to make up much time.
Have not watched much Formula one racing have you? Truly comical post.
oh oh noooo lets not do that, lets just have a computer do it all so we can stab the throttle in 2nd without any drama on a 750hp car...then they'll bitch torque management is "invasive" because they lost to a Prius...some people's kids
Maybe it's just me- I have absolutely no problem adjusting brake zones. I'm "only" doing 150-152 at COTA vs your 165, or 130ish at ECR (vs, say, 87 in the Miata) into a hard off camber left you have to stay tight in. You just have to start conservative and move forward. The hardest part is remembering it all. The most important thing is having the car set up for entry. Honestly, the Miata is harder because it's harder to not over brake. There is a lot less time to make adjustments and lot more lost if you over or under brake (plus, no ABS to save you/tires). See also: Karting.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the data. That is a very big difference in braking. That's going into the turn even and coming out 60 feet ahead of someone- in a single braking zone. Losing .6 sec per turn on a 14 turn track is 8-9 seconds in braking zones- the hardest place gain or lose time. Even if it's only on 1/3 of the turns, 3 seconds is a stupid amount to lose on braking.
As far as Miatas go, no one said they're "only" way to learn to drive. Slow cars are definitely a faster, cheaper and safer way to learn though. I still find more tenths in the Grand Sport by driving the Miata than by driving the GS.
You might be the exception then because this is the most common place I see people give up big time. This includes looking at the same driver, same day for inconsistencies and I have data from a driver that shows exactly the same at T1 at COTA. I'm curious, are you using data (not a dig, honest question)? I'll be honest, without data there are days that I would scratch my head trying to figure out why I was slower than another day and blame the car/weather/track and it turns out that it's something like this that is very difficult to pickup seat of the pants.
You might be the exception then because this is the most common place I see people give up big time. This includes looking at the same driver, same day for inconsistencies and I have data from a driver that shows exactly the same at T1 at COTA. I'm curious, are you using data (not a dig, honest question)? I'll be honest, without data there are days that I would scratch my head trying to figure out why I was slower than another day and blame the car/weather/track and it turns out that it's something like this that is very difficult to pickup seat of the pants.
Yeah, AIM Solo.
Unfortunately, I'm suffering through a horrible case of first world problems. My maid cleaned my house and it disappeared so I can't look through mine. It's been gone for 3 months and seriously annoying the **** out of me. I'm about to buy a new one this week. I figure it will show up right after I buy a new one.
The biggest loss or gains in time I see in data are in two areas, carrying more speed through heavy braking zones and getting back to full throttle sooner. The reality is that braking from 160 MPH to 45 and from 120 MPH to 45 are very different and even if two drivers start braking at the same time and arrive at the same apex speed there is often over half a second advantage to the driver that can carry that extra 3-5 MPH through that braking zone. Throw a driver only used to slower speeds in that high HP car and they are going to struggle to carry that speed through the brake zone because it is way outside of their comfort zone and will be for a long time. Similarly, you can't just run around flat to the floor in a Z06 like you can in a Miata and being able to gauge the rear grip to get back to WOT soonest safely is going to be much harder to learn. Of course, I've never tracked anything with less than 500 HP.
I pounced on your earlier post but have to agree with this. Someone else said throttle control is the hardest skill...what? I guess it may vary by person but have they ever heard of threshold,braking at,the limit?
And as you say, any car at the cornering limit will need throttle,modulation. Its just easier in a Miata vs a Corvette.
Threshold braking is hard without ABS. It's just not that hard with ABS. The harder part is the brake release, while on the limit of traction and keeping the car calm enough to get back on throttle. And then actually getting back on power as your lateral g's decline on exit.
Again, I reiterate that my opinions are purely related to driving at or near the limit of one's vehicle. Probably only 5% (if that) of drivers at any given track day are capable of getting near the limit of their car for a complete lap. Yes you might be able to stab the brakes in one corner. A whole lap at the limit is a different monster. Until you drive competitively, you don't even realize you are mentally not even applying yourself. In my first Time Trial event I picked up 5 seconds from being in a competitive environment alone.
Originally Posted by Warp Factor
You consider karts to be low-powered?
Agreed. Karts take a lot of concentration and balancing. Especially shifter karts. The weight to grip level/inertia ratio is insane.
Originally Posted by village idiot
Yeah, AIM Solo.
Unfortunately, I'm suffering through a horrible case of first world problems. My maid cleaned my house and it disappeared so I can't look through mine. It's been gone for 3 months and seriously annoying the **** out of me. I'm about to buy a new one this week. I figure it will show up right after I buy a new one.
I lost a traqmate traqdash last time I moved. Literally only had it two months. Drove me nuts. I swore somebody stole it. Bought another one. A year later I found it in the trunk of my wife's car. Lol.
Last edited by heavychevy; 10-18-2018 at 01:24 PM.
How does it handle if you just drive it a little bit over the Speed limit?
In regards to daily street driving there are no issues. These guys a referring to pushing cars to the limits in racing situations. Pulling max G's while accelerating, late braking and then back on the throttle in turns.
Good to hear, my C6 ZR1 is pretty busy on the highway, especially on uneven road. It always required full attention. Of course, I don't mind, especially on the track. My wife's sedan is very easy to drive on the highway (at speed limit +14), doesn't wonder around on bad roads.
10-17-2018, 10:24 PM
Spoken by a man that truly knows the difference. 
