A mid-engine C8 just doesn't make sense at all
08-01-2016, 09:07 PM
#41
Drifting
Interesting. Ford just got 500 folks to jump through hoops for the right to buy a 400K+ Ford product. I don't think Ford sells anything within 25% of that price point, but the GT is a halo vehicle that has sold in 2005-6, held value better than the 430 and Gallardo sold at the same time.
I personally would like to see GM do the same. But if essentially everyone has some kind of perception that GM products should all be inexpensive then I doubt a mid engine car is in the works. Such a car will almost certainly be more expensive to develop and much less practical in terms of interior and cargo space. I personally know some GM engineers and know they have the wattage and passion to build an all out exotic performance car.
Build me a car that runs with the GT at $200K and I am in.
I personally would like to see GM do the same. But if essentially everyone has some kind of perception that GM products should all be inexpensive then I doubt a mid engine car is in the works. Such a car will almost certainly be more expensive to develop and much less practical in terms of interior and cargo space. I personally know some GM engineers and know they have the wattage and passion to build an all out exotic performance car.
Build me a car that runs with the GT at $200K and I am in.
If they sell it at 200k they will have to sell an awful lot more of them to make a profit. If that is the case they will not hold value as well as the super limited production cars. If they sell for 400+. That is so far outside of my budget that it is irrelevant. Plus there are a lot of really cool cars in that category.
I honestly think it would be a misstep. Here is why, ford does not have a proper two seat car. Period. GM does.
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dar02081961 (08-04-2016)
08-01-2016, 09:13 PM
#42
Drifting
Also, keep in mind alpha has delivered on a sub 60k mid engine car. With a cf tub to boot. If Chevrolet wants to do it. GM has the engineering know how and prowess to do so.
Last edited by ElCid79; 08-01-2016 at 09:14 PM.
08-01-2016, 11:38 PM
#43
Racer
That said, McClaren sounds great with only 3.8L V8. Cadillac Northstar sounds great with only 4.6L. I was disappointed with Ford's decision on the GT engine as far as sound.
08-02-2016, 12:15 AM
#44
Race Director
...
One thing I've noodled over, is whether to jump on the Zora (assuming they build it) at the price point it likely will have - only to have a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year ME hi-po C8 variant come out later at a lower price point and better performance. Guys could end up spending some higher coin on the Zora, only for a later hi-po C8 model to match/better its performance once the ME engineering and manufacturing has been amortized and optimized.
One thing I've noodled over, is whether to jump on the Zora (assuming they build it) at the price point it likely will have - only to have a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year ME hi-po C8 variant come out later at a lower price point and better performance. Guys could end up spending some higher coin on the Zora, only for a later hi-po C8 model to match/better its performance once the ME engineering and manufacturing has been amortized and optimized.
This is GM's basic business model, i.e. the C6 ZR1 evolving into the C7 Z06. No reason for them to change if it works & drives sales...
08-02-2016, 04:24 AM
#45
Good luck hoping to see the new GT on the street or track.
Those cars will be garage queens and Ford knows it.
Those cars will be garage queens and Ford knows it.
08-02-2016, 12:18 PM
#46
Drifting
An somewhat remote acquaintance was until recently on the board of directors of GM, and he is a car guy. At dinner recently with a good friend of mine, he told him that he had heard about the possibility of a mid engine Corvette, made a few phone calls and put himself at the top of the list to get one. Supposing a price maybe as high as $150,000. My friend said he didn't indicate that he knew for certain one was to be produced, but is covering his bases just in case. No guarantees, but it's a sign....Bob
Last edited by ZR1Bob; 08-02-2016 at 12:18 PM.
08-02-2016, 12:57 PM
#47
Understanding what was said about the price delta, it sure goes against what all believe would be the price for the GM mid-engine, all estimates well above the $150K mark. If GM could manufacture the mid-engine at a price that would maintain Stingray, GS and Z06 price points, they would sure as heck knock it out of the ball park.
C&D was estimating 80K for a "C7 replacement". I think all the ~150k estimates were for a "Zora" or higher hipo Corvette variant.
Not saying we won't see a ME Corvette, I truely do not know. But I'm just not convinced the mules we saw had any features that really point to ME.
I've also heard the Corvette engineers say that it will be mid-engined when making it mid-engined will make it a "better overall car". That includes all of the compromises of practicality, cost, etc.
08-02-2016, 03:44 PM
#48
Bring back Pontiac as the Performance (or 'excitement' division as per GM) and do the following:
-Make the mid engine car the 2018 Trans Am Firehawk w/AWD, DCT and an LT4
-Make the WS6 a Camaro SS clone (LT1) with a sleeker/more rounded appearance and a more upscale interior
-Make the mid engine car the 2018 Trans Am Firehawk w/AWD, DCT and an LT4
-Make the WS6 a Camaro SS clone (LT1) with a sleeker/more rounded appearance and a more upscale interior
Last edited by rti35; 08-02-2016 at 03:47 PM.
08-02-2016, 04:30 PM
#49
could corvette stand on its own[different dealership]ala Ferrari,porsche?
there is talk of chevy Silverado/serria trucks combining as ''GMT'',COULD A TRUCK/CORVETTE DEALERSHIP WORK?
there is talk of chevy Silverado/serria trucks combining as ''GMT'',COULD A TRUCK/CORVETTE DEALERSHIP WORK?
08-02-2016, 07:55 PM
#50
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Didn't the rumored statement of a few years ago indicate the C8 would be introduced and produced side by side with the C7 for the first couple of years with total production moving to the C8 platform after that. That way they could have a Zora Exotic line followed by lower cost variants.
Bill
Bill
08-02-2016, 08:13 PM
#51
Team Owner
What about all the Chevrolet dealers that only sell a half dozen to a couple dozen Corvettes annually? You would end up with a few mega volume Corvette dealers that would be inaccessible to all those that don't live near a MAJOR metropolitan area.
Last edited by JoesC5; 08-02-2016 at 08:15 PM.
08-04-2016, 02:43 PM
#52
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The latest Detroit News article mentioned in other threads says the C7 and C8 will be produced side by side for at least two years. 2019 through 2021.
Bill
Bill
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08-04-2016, 05:11 PM
#53
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Personally I think it makes sense to do it, but I also believe this is the first time you will see GM release the top of the line version and then the lower base models after that car is out.
I also think you will see the C7 run right along with the new car for a number of years until pricing drops for the base models of the C8.
I also think you will see the C7 run right along with the new car for a number of years until pricing drops for the base models of the C8.
08-04-2016, 05:15 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
So there have been enough articles out now discussing what will be in GMs upcoming mid-engine vehicle, given exception to any real thought on whether it really will, or how it will replace what we have now.
In all of these discussions, everyone seems to be overlooking one very important factor, which is the present roadmap that we see with the C7. Simply put, GM won't be replacing the C7 with a C8 mid-engine Corvette anytime soon, if that mid-engine C8 cannot grab the interest of at least the present Z06 buyers, and more importantly, their ability to buy and upgrade from the C7. This seems to be the case with the any price point of this mid-engine that exceeds where the Z06 is leaving off now. I just don't see GM risking losing all of us as buyers to a price point that is unreachable.
So are we believing that GM will make a mid-engine version that falls in line with the Stringray pricing, GS pricing and Z06 pricing that we see now? No, I don't think that will happen. All belief out there is that the mid-engine will be an elite, high end, and very expensive product. I believe this couldn't become the new C8 then as it then gives up on GMs most key clients which are the $50k-100k buyers, which GM has cornered the market on with no competition whatsoever in sight.
With this in mind, do we feel the new C8 will be alot cheaper than everyone is now thinking to retain the present buyers? Is GM just going to shut down the C7, which just may be the most success they have ever had in a body style, in favor of a car that none of the present C7 owners could afford? What will be the plan for retaining the most key sports car buying demographic in the world today?
In the end, all present seem to be completely missing the point on how the upcoming mid-engine car be a C8 as it cannot retain the present customer base that GM has earned...this being their which is their present bread and butter clients? What will be the replacement for the C7 to hold the customers they have now? Thoughts? Will the C8 become an affordable upgrade?
In all of these discussions, everyone seems to be overlooking one very important factor, which is the present roadmap that we see with the C7. Simply put, GM won't be replacing the C7 with a C8 mid-engine Corvette anytime soon, if that mid-engine C8 cannot grab the interest of at least the present Z06 buyers, and more importantly, their ability to buy and upgrade from the C7. This seems to be the case with the any price point of this mid-engine that exceeds where the Z06 is leaving off now. I just don't see GM risking losing all of us as buyers to a price point that is unreachable.
So are we believing that GM will make a mid-engine version that falls in line with the Stringray pricing, GS pricing and Z06 pricing that we see now? No, I don't think that will happen. All belief out there is that the mid-engine will be an elite, high end, and very expensive product. I believe this couldn't become the new C8 then as it then gives up on GMs most key clients which are the $50k-100k buyers, which GM has cornered the market on with no competition whatsoever in sight.
With this in mind, do we feel the new C8 will be alot cheaper than everyone is now thinking to retain the present buyers? Is GM just going to shut down the C7, which just may be the most success they have ever had in a body style, in favor of a car that none of the present C7 owners could afford? What will be the plan for retaining the most key sports car buying demographic in the world today?
In the end, all present seem to be completely missing the point on how the upcoming mid-engine car be a C8 as it cannot retain the present customer base that GM has earned...this being their which is their present bread and butter clients? What will be the replacement for the C7 to hold the customers they have now? Thoughts? Will the C8 become an affordable upgrade?
Just a thought.
08-04-2016, 05:19 PM
#55
I have no desire to drive, own or work on a mid or rear engine car.
Vettes and/or Viper's have held and are holding their own against mid and rear engine platforms for over 50 years on the streets and tracks.
So what's with this fascination with mid engines anyway?
I just don't see it. The front to rear weight ratio is very close to 50/50 so what is a mid engine platform really going to give us?
It may just be me, but I aint impressed.
08-04-2016, 05:39 PM
#56
The Consigliere
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More rearward weight bias to be able to put the power down to the ground. The weight distribution of the 488, for example: 41.5% Front – 58.5% Rear.
We're probably already at the power level a mid/front rear drive rig can put to the ground. Having better weight transfer to the driven wheels would allow more use of the power. And more power. And possibly allow easier implementation of electric front motor hybrid set-up later.
08-04-2016, 05:47 PM
#57
I haven't read this entire thread, but it may be the days of the traditional Corvette--big V8 engine, front engine, RWD, etc.--are numbered. We are being dragged by the global conspiracy to small turbo motors, hybrids, and ultimately to electric cars. If that is true, then GM may build a very limited production, mid-engine car with AWD hybrid powertrain, a big sticker, and a high margin, and quit worrying about producing lots of "everyman" sports cars that effectively are obsolete under current global trends.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
The current platform is a winner at the track, street and in sales. Doesn't make sense to me to scrap 60 years of evolution when you are the best bang for the buck sports car on the planet. It aint broke what are we trying to fix?? !!!
If GM learned anything from Porsche (imagine that) its folks are loyal to what you are, generation after generation. Take the 911 for example. It was a flawed design from the start but has always been and always will be one of the best sport cars on the planet. When Porsche tried to replace it with a 928 and later with the 944 they quickly found out the 911 was what folks wanted. 928's and 944's were great cars, but where are they now?
Corvette can try this mid engine nonsense, but they better keep a front engine, rear drive option in the stable. Lest they lose a niche they created and retained for over 60 years. And the 30/40 thousand customers per year as well. A market for mass production mid engine sports cars has yet to be proven desirable or profitable.
I agree with you however, electric cars and hybrids may be the killer of all IC cars as we know them today, but I believe those days are still 10-15 years off because the infrastructure to support those cars on a mass scale isn't in place.
Until then I hope there is a front engine Vette with a V8 that I can fix in my back garage.
Last edited by dar02081961; 08-05-2016 at 06:39 PM.
08-04-2016, 05:59 PM
#58
More rearward weight bias to be able to put the power down to the ground. The weight distribution of the 488, for example: 41.5% Front – 58.5% Rear.
We're probably already at the power level a mid/front rear drive rig can put to the ground. Having better weight transfer to the driven wheels would allow more use of the power. And more power. And possibly allow easier implementation of electric front motor hybrid set-up later.
We're probably already at the power level a mid/front rear drive rig can put to the ground. Having better weight transfer to the driven wheels would allow more use of the power. And more power. And possibly allow easier implementation of electric front motor hybrid set-up later.
There are no free lunches. The only reason a 488 is better (questionably depending track or venue) than a Z06 or ZR1 for that matter is its weight. And last I checked a 488 hasn't bested the 10 year old ZR1 around the Ring or GM's Milford race track. So again, I am not impressed.
If we were losing or not competitive I could see ditching the current platform. But that aint the case!
Last edited by dar02081961; 08-04-2016 at 06:00 PM.
08-04-2016, 06:23 PM
#59
Le Mans Master
Yea, well when they stop making Vettes in the conventional front engine rear drive layout, I am done.
I have no desire to drive, own or work on a mid or rear engine car.
Vettes and/or Viper's have held and are holding their own against mid and rear engine platforms for over 50 years on the streets and tracks.
So what's with this fascination with mid engines anyway?
I just don't see it. The front to rear weight ratio is very close to 50/50 so what is a mid engine platform really going to give us?
It may just be me, but I aint impressed.
I have no desire to drive, own or work on a mid or rear engine car.
Vettes and/or Viper's have held and are holding their own against mid and rear engine platforms for over 50 years on the streets and tracks.
So what's with this fascination with mid engines anyway?
I just don't see it. The front to rear weight ratio is very close to 50/50 so what is a mid engine platform really going to give us?
It may just be me, but I aint impressed.
08-04-2016, 07:53 PM
#60
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That's and advantage during acceleration and corner exit but a disadvantage during deceleration and heading into turns. The ratio you mention happens to be almost exactly what earlier 911's and Corvairs had. These cars where known for swapping ends and putting folks in ditches. I am not impressed. A 50/50 ratio is the goal and the current Vette is practically already there.
There are no free lunches. The only reason a 488 is better (questionably depending track or venue) than a Z06 or ZR1 for that matter is its weight. And last I checked a 488 hasn't bested the 10 year old ZR1 around the Ring or GM's Milford race track. So again, I am not impressed.
If we were losing or not competitive I could see ditching the current platform. But that aint the case!
There are no free lunches. The only reason a 488 is better (questionably depending track or venue) than a Z06 or ZR1 for that matter is its weight. And last I checked a 488 hasn't bested the 10 year old ZR1 around the Ring or GM's Milford race track. So again, I am not impressed.
If we were losing or not competitive I could see ditching the current platform. But that aint the case!
Well we agree on the advantage for accel on straight line and corner exit. It'll be an advantage under normal (not at the limit braking situations).
In fact, since I don't make a living as a race car driver, come to think of it, the rear mid would provide an advantage for street driving/road driving, straight line performance, most "normal" braking situations - pretty much all the stuff I spend 99% of my time doing in the car. The car is already at the point of much more additional hp not helping to make it any quicker. Being able to better, more easily, and more safely, put the power down is something I would welcome.
But I hear ya - you don't want, and aren't interested. Honestly, I don't think you're alone. I bet there are many folks that will scratch their head at the idea. I'd be glad to try one out, tho.
In any event - we're all just guessing at this point until we get something definitive out of GM.
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