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Old 01-12-2018, 05:29 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Atomic Fred View Post
In before the lock — the guy is correct. A simple Google search will get you dozens of links proving the guy’s point. Here’s a nice one as it is easy to understand and well-sourced: :https://www.aol.com/amp/2012/10/20/b...eryone-thinks/
You're forgetting oil prices have been falling for awhile now.
When prices fall oil companies take a bath (in oil...pun intended ), just like any other major industry with too much product.
They end up holding oil contracts purchased at higher prices than current markets will bear.
They either sit on them or sue to get out of the contract, or sell (or pump) at a low margin.
Hint: it's usually the latter.
Quote:
Margin is not relevant anyway.
You're kidding, right?
Somebody needs to tell stockholders this...

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Old 01-12-2018, 08:08 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by sunsalem View Post
You're forgetting oil prices have been falling for awhile now.
When prices fall oil companies take a bath (in oil...pun intended ), just like any other major industry with too much product.
They end up holding oil contracts purchased at higher prices than current markets will bear.
They either sit on them or sue to get out of the contract, or sell (or pump) at a low margin.
Hint: it's usually the latter.
You're kidding, right?
Somebody needs to tell stockholders this...
I am forgetting nothing -- and I think I need to be clearer about what I meant by the "irrelevance" of margins. That was "semantics" and not the best choice of words on my part. Certainly the short-term example you provide above is valid (interestingly, though, it does not support what I think is your earlier slam on oil companies' margins)

Smart stockholders know that what matters is: (volume X unit margin) / investment. In other words, ROI (getting more detailed, ROI over time which gets to NPV and such). Surely you know the tale of "supermarkets vs. diamond merchants" (Finance 101). So, ceteris paribus, margins do matter, but ONLY in context of the entire business model.

If you want to further debate RoketRdr's point, which my link supported, send me a PM...
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:26 PM   #143
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I am betting the C9 never happens - by 2030, all cars will be fully autonomous and non-self-driving cars will be banned from public roads.
Where is your evidence of this other than a few people like Bob Lutz? If you look at the prototypes and future concepts that the car companies are creating, nearly every single one of them have had the option to drive and a lot of these are envisioned to be sold several decades in the future. I can actually only think of four concepts that didn't have manual driving as a option. Smart came out with one as did VW with their bus, both of which were designed specifically for ride sharing so that's understandable. The other two were Rolls Royce (which is cool because you know... its Rolls Royce) and Audi. Also with Audi's concept, it was designed as an alternative option to a very similar optionally driven version of the car that was announced at the exact same time. Every other concept not including cars from tech companies or being designed specifically for rid sharing have had the option to drive. Many auto industry experts and executives have said you will have the option, and I can post tons of links if I need to to prove that.

There is also no need to do this as many of the benefits of fully self driving, namely reduced crashes and traffic, can be had without banning them. As fully autonomous systems advance, the same technology and advancements can be applied to ADAS's (advanced driver assistance systems). If in the future, if the government mandated that all cars must have advanced lane keeping, auto emergency braking, auto emergency accelerating, auto emergency crash avoidance, and more evolved versions of traction and stability control using torque vectoring, you could have a sort of "safety net" that is around a driver at all times that is there to correct if anything happens. This would get you 95+% of the safety of fully self driving while allowing people to still drive. The NHTSA did a study that found if all cars on the road had level 2 autonomy, which is emergency braking and passive lane keep, crashes would be reduced by 80%.

As far as traffic goes, ride sharing will lower the traffic greatly on its own. Another thing that could be done is they could set up geofences around city centers especially around rush hours that the car would automatically go into autopilot to allow traffic to run more smoothly. Any special circumstances like a crash, public event like a presidential visit, sporting event, natural disaster, etc.... could all have over the air real time geofences put in place when needed to clear up traffic. This would be extremely easy to do because as we know, all cars will be fully connected.

Lastly, what happens is subject to buyer demands. If people still want to drive they will be allowed. KBB did a survey of a few thousand people and they concluded that no matter how advanced the tech got, the vast majority of people still want to be able to drive in addition to having the option to let the car drive. Just like no one is taking away your guns (because as you know, some people argue that guns have no place and are solely used by bad guys to kill people), no one is taking your right to drive. Another thing is that some people in some situations need to be able to drive. An example is basically anything you use a truck for that a corolla can't do. Another is if they don't live in an area with the best internet or infrastructure, or simply those situations that are guaranteed to happen that a computer simply wont know what to do.

On the electric front, it will happen. Its only a matter of time and quite frankly, the world and environment needs it. If allowed, I will still have one gas powered car just for that specific driving experience that can't be replicated, but the rest of my vehicles I have zero problem being all electric. I have had the dream of owning a 67-68 firebird vert with a modern big ci BBC with a 6-speed and ill get it if allowed. Other than noise, electric propulsion is better in every way and there is no way around that. More and more vehicle will become all electric and all we can do is watch and pray that we can still own old gas powered cars as a hobby.

Last edited by theboom; 01-12-2018 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:41 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Kruegmeister View Post
Battery Cars = FAD
How long does your phone battery last?
Answer 2 yeasts or less.
Disposal of said Batteries will become a problem...
Our phone and EV batteries may have similarities in composition but the way power is stored and extracted make their lifespans completely different.

There's a future money making industry waiting for these batteries to start finishing their useful lives in large numbers. Even when a unit isn't suitable to power a road vehicle any longer it is still very capable of storing power and can be repurposed. They can also be refurbished, then resold.. and they contain plenty recyclable parts. Battery packs just being pulled out of cars and hauled off to the landfill isn't realistic at all.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:23 PM   #145
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Simple fact tesla vehicles are impressive in their performance and range.

This is a game changer and the automobile industry is forever evolving.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:10 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by MikeG37 View Post
Our phone and EV batteries may have similarities in composition but the way power is stored and extracted make their lifespans completely different.

There's a future money making industry waiting for these batteries to start finishing their useful lives in large numbers. Even when a unit isn't suitable to power a road vehicle any longer it is still very capable of storing power and can be repurposed. They can also be refurbished, then resold.. and they contain plenty recyclable parts. Battery packs just being pulled out of cars and hauled off to the landfill isn't realistic at all.
Exactly. A couple things you could do with car batteries when the lose too much range to be suitable for the vehicle they came in or the vehicle they are in is unfit are: use them for power storage like tesla power wall/pack, replacement for damaged car batteries, aftermarket battery upgrades for lesser cars, and the obvious of recycling and refurbishing them.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by ironman77 View Post
The C8 is a big mistake, they should just improve on the c7.
As far as young people goes in these cars all they care about is a prius
Have you been to a cars and coffee lately 23-35 year olds are driving these super cars and the louder the exhaust the better and the faster the better. It's what has been popular and growing very fast! The rumor is that the C8 may be revealed at the Detroit Auto show. GM is not going to wait on the C8, don't be surprised.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:14 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by theboom View Post
Exactly. A couple things you could do with car batteries when the lose too much range to be suitable for the vehicle they came in or the vehicle they are in is unfit are: use them for power storage like tesla power wall/pack, replacement for damaged car batteries, aftermarket battery upgrades for lesser cars, and the obvious of recycling and refurbishing them.
Good article on battery materials and production in Bloomberg today. Cobalt is essential for Li-Ion batteries and is already in short supply. Since the introduction of the Tesla, the price of the raw cobalt for a Tesla battery has gone from $600 a unit to over $1700 and is headed skyward. Even bigger problem is that 60% of the world's Cobalt is mined in the Congo, and is controlled by the Chinese. Bad ju-ju.

Calling Africa a "shithole" certainly didn't help the cause of the USA. If you can buy a high performance electric car in 2030, it will likely be made in China.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:25 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by MikeG37
Our phone and EV batteries may have similarities in composition but the way power is stored and extracted make their lifespans completely different.
Not sure this is fully correct.

The batteries in these cars deteriorate quickly just like all electronic devices. The manufactures however are building extra capacity in and artificially setting the range when the battery is new. The pack is losing Range on day one but the extra capacity masks this for the first year or two. Then when there is no buffer left you begin to notice the reduced range.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:57 PM   #150
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Here we go again...more political B.S.

With all due respect, can't you guys just STFU regarding politics?
If ya want to talk about your political POV instead of cars, get the fnck off this forum.
Show some respect for this forum and this forum's members...sheesh.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:00 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ralphroadster View Post
we had eight years of liberals and obama,think snowflakes will grow up,
cars will become cool again, the liberals have made the auto evil
global warming bs, but also was easier to own a vette in 1960 to 1980
still they sell 40000 corvettes a year,
society has changed, but if the company gm>goes to make liberal cars appliance cars, think there domed, think have make good product, not the aztek or saturn,
You mean the 8 years General Motors was saved, and the years of highest corvette sales in recent history and the best corvette to date...

The interest of the young of course shrinks when your coming out of a near great depression , your just looking for a job and saddled now with huge College debt... a problem that did not exist in 1980. People's desires are rationalized by what they can actually do/afford.

This generation will be just later to the party, just like those hit with the Great Depression and WW2.

I got my first Corvette at age 17, a 67 Marlboro Maroon, 350, after graduation since I got a scholarship... A second in 1985...

And I have been getting SUVs, Hummers and Trucks since.. my Corvette time is coming again.. Just replaced the Truck with an Dodge Durango R/T, very impressed, great handling and good power with great Utility... But I want the Vette. The C7 maybe the more practical however when it comes to trips. Bought a 40 Ft sailboat instead of a Vette as planned, now sailing home and after the trip will be getting a Vette ( which cost more than my 40 ft sailboat did).

Regards,

Viper
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:12 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by therealviper View Post
And I have been getting SUVs, Hummers and Trucks since.. my Corvette time is coming again.. Just replaced the Truck with an Dodge Durango R/T, very impressed, great handling and good power with great Utility... But I want the Vette. The C7 maybe the more practical however when it comes to trips. Bought a 40 Ft sailboat instead of a Vette as planned, now sailing home and after the trip will be getting a Vette ( which cost more than my 40 ft sailboat did).

Regards,

Viper
There’s an old saying that most boat owners are familiar. There are 2 days that boat owners are in total bliss. The first day is the day that they take ownership and the other is the day they get rid of it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:28 PM   #153
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There’s an old saying that most boat owners are familiar. There are 2 days that boat owners are in total bliss. The first day is the day that they take ownership and the other is the day they get rid of it.
Amen to that!!

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Old 01-14-2018, 12:35 AM   #154
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Amen to that!!

There is an old saying that a boat is a hole in the water that absorbs money. Even so I keep looking at these plans for a cold-molded mahogany replica of a 19' Chris-Craft Barrelback runabout that would accommodate a marinized LS3 with a V-Drive and a cleaver prop.

Building it would keep me busy in my retirement, but after I finished it I don't know what I'd do with it. It's too pretty to actually go in a lake or river. Oh well.

I think I'll just save up for a C8.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:17 AM   #155
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I am keeping my corvettes but adding electric vehicles not because of my desire to stop purchasing gasoline but rather because the electric motors are superior in power production to ICE.

The assessment that electric cars are a fad is incorrect.

Electric motors are superior to internal combustion gasoline or diesel motors...

Range and recharge are limited to a degree but with 220 to 320 mile range possible today and 1/2 hour 80 percent recharge at a supercharger the game just changed.
I know about the Torque Superiority of Electric as that's my Field. I just meant 100% Electric is the Fad. Just like those stupid Smart Cars were a Fad until Gas came back down to a Reasonable rate. I don't think Cars will go 100% Electric. Hybrid, Sure.
Just watched a Commercial for Honda I think and the Car was Hybrid and could go 39 Miles on Pure Electric... Yeah and my Phone used to last 2 days... 1 Year Later it lasts half of that. Apply that to Cars and you see where I'm going, you'll be still paying for Your Car when the "Electric Round Trip" has diminished to "Crap I couldn't even make a McDonalds Run"

Batteries Diminish.
Disposal will become a Huge Carbon Footprinting Future Nightmare.
End Result will be Electric Cars = Fad
Plus No Engine Sound... Boo!!! Not for me. I'll take slower and Screaming Exhaust

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Old 01-14-2018, 05:26 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Kruegmeister View Post
I know about the Torque Superiority of Electric as that's my Field. I just meant 100% Electric is the Fad. Just like those stupid Smart Cars were a Fad until Gas came back down to a Reasonable rate. I don't think Cars will go 100% Electric. Hybrid, Sure.
Just watched a Commercial for Honda I think and the Car was Hybrid and could go 39 Miles on Pure Electric... Yeah and my Phone used to last 2 days... 1 Year Later it lasts half of that. Apply that to Cars and you see where I'm going, you'll be still paying for Your Car when the "Electric Round Trip" has diminished to "Crap I couldn't even make a McDonalds Run"

Batteries Diminish.
Disposal will become a Huge Carbon Footprinting Future Nightmare.
End Result will be Electric Cars = Fad
Plus No Engine Sound... Boo!!! Not for me. I'll take slower and Screaming Exhaust
I was never a fan of battery cars until I drove the model S in insane mode ...it's pretty impressive and I'm going back quite a way to insane mode versus today's ludicrious which is even better.

We can certainly disagree....no offense intended ...

Battery durability on the model S with 300,000 miles in Norway or finland shows degradation at 4 percent meaning the battery's in his vehicle are at 96 percent capability...after 300k miles...!

The degradation is no where near even teslas expectation...

The key for teslas ability to minimize degradation has been proper active thermal management. GM and tesla have proper active thermal management systems designed and installed.

I believe your perspective on degradation has more to do with the nissans brands decision to NOT build in an active thermal management system and the leaf does suffer from battery degradation. (Unacceptably so you are correct with regard to those vehicles like the cheaper Nissan Leaf without active thermal management)

Supposedly next few years Nissan is bringing out a higher mileage version of the second generation leaf which will include an active thermal management system.

I don't mean the new leaf just released but rather Nissan is aware of its limited capability even of it's just shown Leaf without a proper active thermal management system and has one in a few years ready to go for the Nissan Leaf update...on the just released 2nd gen leaf..

Nissan is about 7 grand cheaper than the Chevy bolt or the tesla model 3 and most of that is because Nissan did not include an active thermal management system...

Hence the horrific battery degradation compared to the Chevy bolt or the tesla products which both have active thermal manage,ent systems..

Without that you are correct electric vehicles are throw away products whose batteries diminish.

The technology is moving really quickly...

I'm not a greenie, I don't believe in climate change etc...could care less about paying for gasoline...but the driving experience of battery technology ...along with the 200 to 300 mile range...not to mention the 1/2 hour charge time at a supercharger for an extra 80 percent charge...for an average cost of $13 at a tesla supercharger is pretty impressive..

Most expect charges to occur at homes overnight...for even less...

All that's awesome but the driving experience of no noise and instant torque...not to mention impressive packaging...there is no comparision..

ACTIVE thermal management of tesla and GM is the key to long battery life.

I'm keeping my corvette...too...and I prefer the noise and shifting etc that you do...but for family transport...

The qualities of ev s such as the tesla model 3 far exceed the competition with internal combustion engines...

GM will have 20 ev s by 2023..

Games over.....the revolution is coming...

JMO....and I respect your opinion. No insult intended.


..

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Old 01-14-2018, 02:15 PM   #157
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You're forgetting oil prices have been falling for awhile now.
No they haven't...been on a steady rise for the past year.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:04 PM   #158
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You're right...it has gone up a little lately:




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Old 01-16-2018, 11:55 AM   #159
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Here we go again...more political B.S.

With all due respect, can't you guys just STFU regarding politics?
If ya want to talk about your political POV instead of cars, get the fnck off this forum.
Show some respect for this forum and this forum's members...sheesh.
Excuse me, aren't you the one calling people "knuckle daggers" and other assorted insults that didn't agree with your climate change politics in another thread in the C8 forum. You were and now you have the nerve to call people out?

Get real!
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:05 PM   #160
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Excuse me, aren't you the one calling people "knuckle daggers" and other assorted insults that didn't agree with your climate change politics in another thread in the C8 forum. You were and now you have the nerve to call people out?

Get real!
I look at it this way, my, or anyone else's poltics on the issue, don't matter. Electric cars are coming. And not just some of them, all of them. Almost every car manufacturer now has an EV option. Volvo has stated that in the very near future all of their cars will at least be hybrids. Very few people are clamoring for natural gas, hydrogen, etc. Electric cars are coming every model, in every line. The only question is how long will it take. There's no use debating liking it or hating it or prudence. The only thing stopping it from taking over the market right now is recharge time. Once you cut recharge time or battery swap down to about 10 minutes, its game over forever for gasoline engines. It doesn't matter whether I, you, or anyone loves that or hates it, it just is.
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