Transmission thoughts....
09-18-2018, 07:36 AM
#21
Instructor
Yeah I seriously doubt they'll get rid of the manual transmission. I understand why some overseas manufacturers don't do it: because it costs I believe a million dollars per option (1. automatic, 2. manual). And if you have different engine sizes, you're looking to spend a lot of money that may or may not pay off; it's a big gamble to say the least bringing that many options into the US market. But for the US manufacturers, a manual transmission should be available since there is no additional import cost and there is still a relatively large following, especially for the Corvette market.
Also, look what happened when Porsche tried to do away with the manual transmission on the GT3. There was such a large outcry that not only did they bring it back, but they also created the GT4 only in a manual transmission to help bring back its customer base.
Also, look what happened when Porsche tried to do away with the manual transmission on the GT3. There was such a large outcry that not only did they bring it back, but they also created the GT4 only in a manual transmission to help bring back its customer base.
Last edited by dinocajic; 09-18-2018 at 07:38 AM.
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LifeIsGood22 (09-18-2018)
09-18-2018, 08:17 AM
#22
There may or may not be a manual (eventually) but please remember the 23% figure occurs without a DCT option available. That means the statistic does not account for two classes of customers:
(1) Those current C7 buyers who like manuals, hate slushboxes, but would have opted for a DCT if it were available (and thus would not be "lost" customers in a "no-manual-Vette world.")
(2) Those who like DCTs but not slushboxes, who might have been poached away from DCT-equipped competitors such as Cayman/Boxster and lower-end 911 variants.
My bet is the real number of lost "die-hard" manual customers would be in the 10% range, and that, in addition, some competitive sports/sporty car buyers would be poached from DCT-offering competitors. But, that is just my guess at an over/under if forced to set such odds. You have to believe GM knows way more about these numbers than we do. That is not to say their analysis of the data will be correct or foolproof.
(1) Those current C7 buyers who like manuals, hate slushboxes, but would have opted for a DCT if it were available (and thus would not be "lost" customers in a "no-manual-Vette world.")
(2) Those who like DCTs but not slushboxes, who might have been poached away from DCT-equipped competitors such as Cayman/Boxster and lower-end 911 variants.
My bet is the real number of lost "die-hard" manual customers would be in the 10% range, and that, in addition, some competitive sports/sporty car buyers would be poached from DCT-offering competitors. But, that is just my guess at an over/under if forced to set such odds. You have to believe GM knows way more about these numbers than we do. That is not to say their analysis of the data will be correct or foolproof.
09-18-2018, 09:48 AM
#24
Safety Car
Are you in manual mode everyday? Busy pushing the buttons on the way to church, work, or taking the girls to soccer practice? How often do you or would you use the button shifters? I want to see how this is a replacement for a manual transmission. Or do you normally just leave it in automatic mode?
09-18-2018, 10:20 AM
#25
Intermediate
Thread Starter
09-18-2018, 10:30 AM
#26
Not even close. Plus the fact that those who drive a DCT, maybe 2% ever use the manual mode. The monkey will only push the gas 98% of the time! Real World driving of course. Leave the track out as that 95% of owners have never driven on a track other than once for the performance driving school
Last edited by flyforfun; 09-18-2018 at 10:32 AM.
09-18-2018, 01:00 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
How to take a DCT and make it into a manual::
1) install a "clutch" pedal with a potentiometer on it
2) install a "stick shift" with 7 (or 8) micro switches
3) reprogram the DCT computer to obey
3.1) when the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged
3.2) if the stick shift is not in gear the clutch is disengaged
3.3) which micro switch at the stick determines which gear is selected
3.4) the rate of clutch pedal out travel corresponds to the rate ot clutch engagement at the DCT.
Presto, DCT looks and smells like a manual transmission.
The added gear is less than $200 in volume--so it could be sold for $1000 as an option.
1) install a "clutch" pedal with a potentiometer on it
2) install a "stick shift" with 7 (or 8) micro switches
3) reprogram the DCT computer to obey
3.1) when the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged
3.2) if the stick shift is not in gear the clutch is disengaged
3.3) which micro switch at the stick determines which gear is selected
3.4) the rate of clutch pedal out travel corresponds to the rate ot clutch engagement at the DCT.
Presto, DCT looks and smells like a manual transmission.
The added gear is less than $200 in volume--so it could be sold for $1000 as an option.
09-18-2018, 01:17 PM
#28
How to take a DCT and make it into a manual::
1) install a "clutch" pedal with a potentiometer on it
2) install a "stick shift" with 7 (or 8) micro switches
3) reprogram the DCT computer to obey
3.1) when the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged
3.2) if the stick shift is not in gear the clutch is disengaged
3.3) which micro switch at the stick determines which gear is selected
3.4) the rate of clutch pedal out travel corresponds to the rate ot clutch engagement at the DCT.
Presto, DCT looks and smells like a manual transmission.
The added gear is less than $200 in volume--so it could be sold for $1000 as an option.
1) install a "clutch" pedal with a potentiometer on it
2) install a "stick shift" with 7 (or 8) micro switches
3) reprogram the DCT computer to obey
3.1) when the clutch pedal is in, the clutch is disengaged
3.2) if the stick shift is not in gear the clutch is disengaged
3.3) which micro switch at the stick determines which gear is selected
3.4) the rate of clutch pedal out travel corresponds to the rate ot clutch engagement at the DCT.
Presto, DCT looks and smells like a manual transmission.
The added gear is less than $200 in volume--so it could be sold for $1000 as an option.
To me, this shows the idiocy of getting too bent out of shape re this issue. We are essentially talking about the interface between the driver and the transmission. The above modifications would provide a "manual transmission" driving experience. Or, the driver could just realize that using a DCT's paddle does exactly the same thing! Either way you are controlling a clutch based transmission.
This does however bypass certain necessary actions such as blipping the throttle when double clutching, etc. Regardless, shifting a manual is still "muscle memory" / reflexive action for an experienced driver!
09-18-2018, 02:22 PM
#29
Race Director
I believe porsches manual transmission and the PDK are mechancially identical in many ways for ease of manufacturering and minimizing costs..(hehehe)
that was one of their announcements at their last generational change overs.
that was one of their announcements at their last generational change overs.
Last edited by JerriVette; 09-18-2018 at 02:44 PM.
09-18-2018, 03:14 PM
#30
Honestly, though, the fact that shifting a manual becomes mechanical isn't an argument against them, it's an argument for them. That's part of the engagement, the feel, of driving a manual. Since we are all (trying to) be funny here, allow me to demonstrate:
DETROIT, Michigan, Jan. 15, 2028. (For immediate release.)
General Motors is excited to announce the all new C9 Corvette. The brand new Corvette includes a number of technological breakthroughs but none of them are as important as the all new EyeSteer.™ Corvette engineers realized that to drivers with just a few years of experience the act of steering becomes mechanical. What is important about steering in performance driving is choosing the right line to enter and exit a corner. No one really thinks about the actual act of steering. EyeSteer eliminates the need for this boring and repetitive task. Cameras inside the cabin track the driver's eye movements and project the line they want the car to take. It's as simple as that. Just look where you want the new C9 Corvette to go and it will take you there. On the track the driver is still in control of the the important part of steering--picking the right line--and relieved of the mechanical task of turning a steering wheel. And of course for busy city driving EyeSteer can be put in automatic mode and does all the steering for you. Old timers might bemoan the lack of a steering wheel in the new C9 Corvette but let's face it, those people are idiots.
General Motors is excited to announce the all new C9 Corvette. The brand new Corvette includes a number of technological breakthroughs but none of them are as important as the all new EyeSteer.™ Corvette engineers realized that to drivers with just a few years of experience the act of steering becomes mechanical. What is important about steering in performance driving is choosing the right line to enter and exit a corner. No one really thinks about the actual act of steering. EyeSteer eliminates the need for this boring and repetitive task. Cameras inside the cabin track the driver's eye movements and project the line they want the car to take. It's as simple as that. Just look where you want the new C9 Corvette to go and it will take you there. On the track the driver is still in control of the the important part of steering--picking the right line--and relieved of the mechanical task of turning a steering wheel. And of course for busy city driving EyeSteer can be put in automatic mode and does all the steering for you. Old timers might bemoan the lack of a steering wheel in the new C9 Corvette but let's face it, those people are idiots.
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PurpleLion (09-18-2018)
09-18-2018, 03:25 PM
#31
Race Director
We are merely pointing out you are not representative of as large a group as you think you are. It’s a statistical argument; you are making an anecdotal one...
09-18-2018, 03:40 PM
#32
Race Director
I agree 100%. I love the manual in my '17 Zo6, LOVE it. However it really was a tough decision between the auto and the manual... until I drove the auto. The up paddle shift lag was painful in my humble opinion...despite overall the auto being a faster car... so bottom line, if it was a DCT, it would have been a much harder decision... frankly, I know I would have chosen a DCT if it was an option. Once warranty runs out on my Z (2021) I'm hoping the C8 Zo6 variant is live!!
One anecdote to MY point, if you will indulge me. My son is a competent amateur racer (SCCA autocross, LeMons, top group on track days, several racing schools.). He is a wizard with manuals, heel & toe, etc. He drives a 370Z 6-speed. Hardly a “monkey.” He has had recent good fortune in his career. His next sports car will be a DCT. He hopes it will be a C8...
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 09-18-2018 at 03:50 PM.
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ByByBMW (09-18-2018)
09-18-2018, 04:33 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by PurpleLion
Or, the driver could just realize that using a DCT's paddle does exactly the same thing! Either way you are controlling a clutch based transmission.
09-18-2018, 04:43 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jan 2017
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There may or may not be a manual (eventually) but please remember the 23% figure occurs without a DCT option available. That means the statistic does not account for two classes of customers:
(1) Those current C7 buyers who like manuals, hate slushboxes, but would have opted for a DCT if it were available (and thus would not be "lost" customers in a "no-manual-Vette world.")
(2) Those who like DCTs but not slushboxes, who might have been poached away from DCT-equipped competitors such as Cayman/Boxster and lower-end 911 variants.
My bet is the real number of lost "die-hard" manual customers would be in the 10% range, and that, in addition, some competitive sports/sporty car buyers would be poached from DCT-offering competitors. But, that is just my guess at an over/under if forced to set such odds. You have to believe GM knows way more about these numbers than we do. That is not to say their analysis of the data will be correct or foolproof.
(1) Those current C7 buyers who like manuals, hate slushboxes, but would have opted for a DCT if it were available (and thus would not be "lost" customers in a "no-manual-Vette world.")
(2) Those who like DCTs but not slushboxes, who might have been poached away from DCT-equipped competitors such as Cayman/Boxster and lower-end 911 variants.
My bet is the real number of lost "die-hard" manual customers would be in the 10% range, and that, in addition, some competitive sports/sporty car buyers would be poached from DCT-offering competitors. But, that is just my guess at an over/under if forced to set such odds. You have to believe GM knows way more about these numbers than we do. That is not to say their analysis of the data will be correct or foolproof.
09-18-2018, 05:31 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
It is very likely that there will be problems with the DCTs at least for the first couple are years (at least) while the bugs are sorted out. A manual transmission and manual clutch are much simpler devices that haven't changed much over the last few decades. It is likely there will be no more issues with the manual than they have had in the past. Not having transmission problems is a selling point.
09-18-2018, 06:18 PM
#36
I have driven manual cars and motorcycles for almost 60 years and appreciate the process as much as the next guy. However, it has been many decades since I have had "to think" about the process. It is, in fact, automatic!!!
Last edited by PurpleLion; 09-18-2018 at 06:27 PM.
09-18-2018, 06:26 PM
#37
I have driven a few slushboxes with paddles and I find them uniformly terrible! Especially when downshifting. The type of transmission attached to a paddle is very important. Slushbox - NG; DCT - VG!
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ByByBMW (09-18-2018)
09-18-2018, 06:49 PM
#38
Race Director
I like this theory. Honestly, I'd still bump up the "die-hard" manual customers rate a bit, only because most of those die-hards would've bought the car inside of two years from C7's lifespan. Water finds its level afterwards, but in the first two years, the rate was actually at 33% between the Stingray and newly released Z06. The Z06 in particular was slightly over 50% for manual transmission production units for the 2015 model year. That's a very significant number.
But I'm done with this one. Gotta draw the line. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Maybe one addendum. If, in fact, the "Two Vette Theory" turns out to be true, I would expect the C8 ME to be the "borderline exotic challenger" and my probability for DCT only on that model would be very high indeed.
I like keeping the discussion fun and I am amazed, as old as I am and as far out as MY window to get a C8 ME would be, that I am still as excited as I was as a 12-YO riding my bike with a couple buddies into the nearby town (around this time of year) to try to sneak a peak at all the new models (they'd have been '65's) that were covered up in the dealer showrooms...
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 09-18-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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ByByBMW (09-18-2018)
09-18-2018, 06:56 PM
#39
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by PurpleLion
I have driven a few slushboxes with paddles and I find them uniformly terrible! Especially when downshifting. The type of transmission attached to a paddle is very important. Slushbox - NG; DCT - VG!
Last edited by NY09C6; 09-18-2018 at 06:57 PM.
