JoesC5

I am not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 911 and the Cayman/Boxster are Porsche MODELS, just as the Corvette is a Chevrolet MODEL.

I am comparing the 911 and the Cayman to the Corvette, I m not comparing the entire Porsche lineup against the entire Porsche lineup.

Foosh

OK, then why not compare the Camaro and Corvette as two different models of Chevrolet to the Cayman/Boxter and 911, two different models of Porsche?

What the hell is your point?

Atari_Prime

The boxster is not a 911 light? Well...it depends on how we define that. If sharing parts is your definition, they share some but not enough to call it a lot. So we are left with the perception comparisons. They look a lot alike, one is smaller than the other, lighter, less hp, and cheaper. By this comparison it could easily be thought of as a 911 light. But the most important area is the public perception. Few go to Porsche wanting a Boxster because it is the best car for them. No, instead they get a Boxster because they couldn't otherwise afford a 911 but still want a speedy Porsche. In that sense, the Boxster is very much a 911 light. In the same avenue as the 80s and 90s Camaros and Firebirds were light versions of Corvettes. People bought those, not because they wanted them, but because it was the closest they could get to Corvette. Same for the Porsche 944 v 928, DB9 v. Vanquish, Gallardo v. Murcielago, 570S v. P1, 335i v. M3, Challenger/Charger v. Viper, California v. 458, etc.

JoesC5

My point is that Porsche has two different platforms for their two different sports cars, thus Chevrolet could also have two different platforms.

Porsche has the 911 and the 718 and Chevrolet could have the Corvette and the "Zora".

The 911 has the rear engine platform and the 718 has the mid-engine platform.

The 911 covers the high end pricing and the 718 covers the low end pricing.

And the Corvette has the front engine platform and the Zora(for lack of a better name) has the mid engine platform.

The Corvette covers the low end pricing and the Zora covers the high end pricing.

Foosh

LOL . . . no need to compete with a car that is "unobtainium." Try to buy one.

LOL . . . never mind, Joe, and Chevrolet right now has two different platforms for two different "sporty" cars capable of similar lap times on the world's great race tracks covering both low- and high-end pricing.

JerryU

I installed the Olds in 1959 as well. Could get those and parts in the junk yard. A Chevy V8 was expensive! Had the '50 Olds bored 1/8 inches for '55 pistons, 324 cid! Recall the machine shop saying you'll be in the water jacket. "Hot Rod" said it could be done (no UT at the time.) They said fine but pay up front and if we hit a water jacket, it's yours. I agreed! No one talked about core shift and it was fine! That increased compression as well and added a 3/4 cam as they were called "in-the-day!"

Side Bar
Your gasser reminded me of the flathead that came in my Ford. The fellow I bought it from had a 3 X 2 manifold in the trunk (talk about being over carbureted) with 3 old Stromberg '97 carbs. Even then they were considered old by the automotive supply house I used. I decided to trade those in for rebuilt '94s. As I was "discussing their great value" with one of the parts shop owner's, who I knew, he was not willing to give me credit for those antiques! A fellow walked in who had a '34 gasser with a blown Caddy! I knew him from going to the drag races but he didn't know me. He looked at the '97's and overheard our "discussion" and said, I'll give the kid the $5/each trade in! $15 dollars was a lot of money to me at the time!

Telepierre

I am with you on this one Joe and rationally... is the cost and risk of trying really that high?!

Memo to self. IF they do it I'll check the Zora trunk first and then head for a black low wing 7.5 ZR1... if I survive wifey...:-)

Foosh

You should do a little research on "supply chain" and "economy of scale" in mass production. In my world, you can order 100 airplanes at $500M each or 1000 airplanes at $250M each.

Porsche also benefits from R&D costs written off decades ago on the Boxster/Cayman and 911 platforms. That's one huge advantage of sticking with the same basic models for decades. GM's strategy for Corvette is to significantly undercut Porsche and every other performance sports car on price.

Rapid Fred

So much wrong here. But, let's just start with the most obvious. The Boxster is a smaller, more entry level (and interestingly 2 seat) SPORTS CAR that folks who have a certain SPORTS CAR budget, and love 911's, might well buy if the Boxster's "Porscheness" really ticks their boxes. Maybe in the '80's and '90's a few misguided souls who wanted, but could not afford, a Vette bought the bigger, heavier, 4-seat PONY CAR -- but if you wanted what a Vette delivered, and could not afford one, the SMALLER, LIGHTER version came from Japan. Period. (Unless the only thing you cared about was the engine and a few bits of switchgear.) Today, the smaller, lighter version really does not exist -- but in the price range I would say the Miata is more the "smaller, lighter, cheaper" Vette than a non-V8 Camaro would be.

OK, I'll bite again. Can you imagine anybody wanting a VIPER, but falling $$$ short, instead choosing the gigantic Challenger/Charger, which is a (2/4 door) muscle car -- and a completely different breed? They probably would instead buy a Vette (and then discover equivalent performance and a ton more livability -- nice consolation prize!)

I can only conclude your analogies are driven buy some notion that buyers are mostly driven by badge loyalty vs. driving experience. That was quite true in the '50's, less so in the '60's and '70's, and I think pretty rare today.

I know I am not alone in saying I love Vettes, would move mountains to get the Vette I can afford, but would NEVER, EVER buy a pony car Camaro just to have a Chevy with a few parts in common with a Vette..

Rapid Fred

Why do you say that? If they put a Camaro badge and a bow tie on it, and cut way back on the chrome, why wouldn't it be?

jcp911s

This thread has wandered into the arcane world of economics and pricing.

There is something economists call "Price elasticity" which is how markets respond to changes in price... as one economist famously said "everybody's a millionaire when buying a newspaper"

The lobster and diamond industries and yes our friends at Porsche and Ferrari have made an art form from the manipulation of supply to maximize profits... and profits all all companies care about.

For a niche product like Corvette, demand is limited at any price, so where is the "sweet-spot"

For simplicity (ignoring fixed cost amortization to make the math easy), assume the following:

1. Total market for Corvettes is 50K units/yr
2. Cost per unit is $40K
3. At $60K I can sell 30K units for a margin of $600M
4. At $70K I can sell 25K units for a margin of $750M
5. At $80K I can sell 20K units for a margin of $800M
6. At $40K i can clear the market at 50K unit and $0 margin

You are the boss... what do you do?

Sure, more volume means better supplier pricing, but also more capacity, and logistic costs... more volume also means I need to meet broader market needs which adds development cost and complexity... volume alone is not a free ride.

Foosh

Yes, I'm envisioning a different "Camaro" than what is produced today.

Good post, and much of what you say is certainly true. However, your margin examples are off. Using the identical platform with different bolt-on components, GM is selling C7s with MSRPs ranging between $55-$150K. The margin on the high end is substantially better than the margin on the low end. I also suspect the margin on the low end is better than your example.

By sticking with the same platform across a broad range of prices, the cost per unit gets lower and lower. The more platforms mass-produced, the cheaper the cost per unit gets, and the greater the margin for all price points.

jcsperson

Just look at recent Corvette history. The 2014 Stingray was slower than a 2013 Z06.

We know the drill. Chevrolet has Corvette marketing down to a science:
1. Introduce a new model
2. Add the Z06 a year later
3. Add the Grand Sport some time after that
4. Close out the generation with the ZR1

Foosh

BUT, the 2014 base Stingray was getting perilously close to a 2013 Z06. The base has gotten better in every succeeding generation.

C7pimp

That's a bit of an exaggeration. M C7 is a 2014 base and I have also driven a C6 Z06. The C6 Z06 was a substantially higher performing car.

jcp911s

Absolutely. Just trying to keep it under 50 pages... the real fun begins in the real world where nobody actually knows what all these numbers are... N-dimensional optimization of wildly variable unknown SWAGs. I began my career doing cost of service studies at AT&T (yeah, THAT AT&T), and learned that when someone asks "what does it cost" the only honest answer is "what do you want it to cost?"

455230

Totally agree.......Makes more sense to have 2 different versions covering the price spectrum ......as well as limiting ME numbers so heavy discounting is no longer needed.

Tom73

Zora_Vette

I really do not know why we are still talking about this, let alone going so in depth. GM makes mistakes, but they are not stupid. They are not going to change a formula that has worked for over 65 years. They are not going to increase the price 300%. If this ME car is the C8, it will not start a penny above $66K. If this ME car is another model in the Corvette lineup, and the actual C8 is a FE car that is the successor to the C7, then this ME car will not start a penny above $85K. Emd of discussion. Can we move on now?

range96

You want this to go away, then stop feeding the fire.