Unlikely base MEC using “upgraded LT1”
03-21-2019, 08:41 PM
#1041
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
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Mikec7z
No better place in the world than the US to have the dreams come true.
But not at the big three or and large corporate car manufacturer. Best get experiance at a Callaway as you mentioned or some custom shops and do it on your own!
No better place in the world than the US to have the dreams come true.
But not at the big three or and large corporate car manufacturer. Best get experiance at a Callaway as you mentioned or some custom shops and do it on your own!
Last edited by JerryU; 03-21-2019 at 08:43 PM.
03-21-2019, 08:45 PM
#1042
^^^
I’m off Alfa as being on top! The 2019 Volvo 2 Liter Turbo + supercharge FWD combined with an electric hybrid RWD has 415 hp total and 494 pound-feet of torque. Since we don’t get snow in Eastern SC I’ll take 2 Volvo engines (4 Liter) providing 830 hp system with 600hp to the rear wheels and 230 electric FWD in my C8!
I’m off Alfa as being on top! The 2019 Volvo 2 Liter Turbo + supercharge FWD combined with an electric hybrid RWD has 415 hp total and 494 pound-feet of torque. Since we don’t get snow in Eastern SC I’ll take 2 Volvo engines (4 Liter) providing 830 hp system with 600hp to the rear wheels and 230 electric FWD in my C8!
More bench racing huh? Having all that power is meaningless when the car weighs as much as a full size truck.
Can see the new headline that will get World Wide coverage because CNN International will have the video clip playing:
“AOC says GM announces their halo C8 Corvette with an old technology, high CO2 emitting engine while socialist Sweden, has a more environmentally friendly engine in 2019 that gets almost the same power from an engine 1/3 the size that also recovers wasted braking energy!”
“AOC says GM announces their halo C8 Corvette with an old technology, high CO2 emitting engine while socialist Sweden, has a more environmentally friendly engine in 2019 that gets almost the same power from an engine 1/3 the size that also recovers wasted braking energy!”
"GM once again has the Corvette using the best V8 in the world making more power and weighing less than anything competition is making and getting better gas mileage while doing it."
03-21-2019, 08:46 PM
#1043
... and when you are building super sports cars... guess how much the Chinese millionaires and billionaires care about the tax structure?
They don't.. they just want the biggest and the baddest. Impala or bolt... sure, bring that chart out.. but it has no relevance to people in china buying a vette.
People in china import 90% of the land rover full size autobiography's and mercedes GL that are sold in the usa (but that has halted due to the trade war with usa china now). They pay the full tax on them... and its even higher than the figures you listed above, its almost 100% markup on big v8's... but they pay it because theres enough millionaires over there and not a big enough used car market, that they dont care, they want the best and have the money.
They don't.. they just want the biggest and the baddest. Impala or bolt... sure, bring that chart out.. but it has no relevance to people in china buying a vette.
People in china import 90% of the land rover full size autobiography's and mercedes GL that are sold in the usa (but that has halted due to the trade war with usa china now). They pay the full tax on them... and its even higher than the figures you listed above, its almost 100% markup on big v8's... but they pay it because theres enough millionaires over there and not a big enough used car market, that they dont care, they want the best and have the money.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 08:47 PM.
03-21-2019, 09:00 PM
#1044
Pro
The small block Chevrolet engine hasn't been put a GM car in over 20 years. The 2nd gen lt1 (91-96) was a variant of the original SBC.
The ls1 and everything after it is not a small block Chevy. It shares no parts and is a 100% new design engine. Its like saying that the 4.6 modular engine is a small block ford.
Or a VW beetle engine is a modern Porsche engine.
Just because an engine shares bore spacing and its a V8 made by GM doesn't mean anything. The valve layout is completely different, the oiling system is totally different, as is the water pump, cooling system, engine mounts, intake manifold, on and on.
The Gen5 is not a small block Chevy either,is also a completely different engine. It shares no parts with the 1997- on gen3 or gen4 engines. Well except a few bolts.
Everything that it shares in common with the gen4 would fit in the palm of your hand. Its a modern state of the art V8 engine that rivals any engine on the planet for efficiency, emissions and HP per CI N/A. Its going to be around for a while.
The ls1 and everything after it is not a small block Chevy. It shares no parts and is a 100% new design engine. Its like saying that the 4.6 modular engine is a small block ford.
Or a VW beetle engine is a modern Porsche engine.
Just because an engine shares bore spacing and its a V8 made by GM doesn't mean anything. The valve layout is completely different, the oiling system is totally different, as is the water pump, cooling system, engine mounts, intake manifold, on and on.
The Gen5 is not a small block Chevy either,is also a completely different engine. It shares no parts with the 1997- on gen3 or gen4 engines. Well except a few bolts.
Everything that it shares in common with the gen4 would fit in the palm of your hand. Its a modern state of the art V8 engine that rivals any engine on the planet for efficiency, emissions and HP per CI N/A. Its going to be around for a while.
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z06801 (03-22-2019)
03-21-2019, 09:24 PM
#1045
03-21-2019, 09:26 PM
#1046
Pro
Keep in mind, Chevy didn't always use that plant. I'm reminded of the 70s and early 80s v8s that came from a plant in Mexico, and the camshafts were not of the same caliber as the US cams and as a result, I replaced many a camshaft in a mid to late 70s and early 80s Corvettes.
S-10 2.8 v6 rear main seal leaks
leaking valve covers
bad small block v8 cams and V6
cracked blocks in the lifter valleys (garbage made in mexico)
Rack seals
rotating rear wheel cylinders
leaking valve covers
riveting chevette seat anchor plates (omg no kidding)
purge valves
fuel pumps
mc solenoids
leaking valve covers
700r4 trannys constantly
cross member mounts
leaking valve covers (did i say that one already? lol)
truck ball joints
vats ignition lock cylinders
corvette digital dashboards
crossfire linkages
more oil leaks
spark control modules ecus
proms
pinion seals
2.5 cam gears knocking
2.5 blocks cracking
oil leaks
cavalier sway bar bushings
Oil leaks were so bad by 1986 it was like we were working on radial engines.
I have to stop or ill have nightmares tonight.
03-21-2019, 09:36 PM
#1047
Pro
Oh ! i almost forgot the grand daddy of them all, emptying, sifting, refilling the catalytic converters before the monolith types came out. (yea they were junk too)
Yea that was something really special to do. All that dust, rhodium and platinum with a pinch of ceramic dust. Oh yea, the duel bed catalytic converters were something real special.
God I hated them.
Ok back to your scheduled programing....
Yea that was something really special to do. All that dust, rhodium and platinum with a pinch of ceramic dust. Oh yea, the duel bed catalytic converters were something real special.
God I hated them.
Ok back to your scheduled programing....
Last edited by GrandSport 2017; 03-21-2019 at 09:37 PM.
03-21-2019, 09:59 PM
#1048
Le Mans Master
Oh ! i almost forgot the grand daddy of them all, emptying, sifting, refilling the catalytic converters before the monolith types came out. (yea they were junk too)
Yea that was something really special to do. All that dust, rhodium and platinum with a pinch of ceramic dust. Oh yea, the duel bed catalytic converters were something real special.
God I hated them.
Ok back to your scheduled programing....
Yea that was something really special to do. All that dust, rhodium and platinum with a pinch of ceramic dust. Oh yea, the duel bed catalytic converters were something real special.
God I hated them.
Ok back to your scheduled programing....
03-21-2019, 10:05 PM
#1049
My point is... if 90% of our cars sold in the usa, are leaving our country, and being bought by the chinese, ON TOP of what the chinese dealers sell them as well....
and it is EVIDENT that the chinese MUST HAVE THE BEST... AT ANY COST...
Then guess how important it is that a corvette has a smaller motor? Zilch.
The rarer a car is in china, the more the chinese want it. The reason they dont like vettes, is not because of the motor size.. it is because THEY ARE NOT RARE and they think the interiors are NOT LUXURIOUS ENOUGH.
If you produced a 4 cylinder vette, and i produced a 1500hp vette, the 1500 HP vette would get bought up by the chinese.... and you couldnt sell the 4 cylinder vette to them if you tried.
They have the money, they do not care. They love the German and British RARE cars. THey hate the color silver. They hate mass production. THey hate the color blue, they hate the color green.
THe car must be black, red, white, or dark brown. Interior cant be gray or tan, it must be Black, dark brown, or red.
Now you are an expert exporter. They will order 4 ferrari 488 and f8's and 6 Rolls Royce for every 1 zr1 you manage to get them to buy. They want... RARE and Luxury.
And we are talking about chinese millionaires, because when chinese millionaires are common enough to buy almost EVERY LAST BMW x5 sold in the usa at our dealerships before Trump started a trade war... yes... we are talking about the millionaires of china... there are more than I think you can fathom.
In china you are a millionaire, or you have nothing. There is not really an in between.
The only car GM needs to worry about having a small engine in china is a car under 18 grand USD, or very luxurious interior Buicks, and who on this forum gives a rats a$$ about that market segment? Genuinely.
If team corvette thinks that a smaller engine is what is needed to get the vettes to sell in china, add that to the list of total failures of GM research and marketing.
Chinese will pay 100% import tax on a car if they like the interior... they hate vettes because BMW and Aston Martin put a vette to shame on the inside.... and if they want big power, then they want ferrari, lambo, or mclaren, etc.
They think vettes are junk.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 10:33 PM.
03-21-2019, 10:39 PM
#1050
Safety Car
Cadillac Reiterates It Will Not Share Blackwing V8 Engine With Other Brands
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/03/...#ixzz5ireLLC8u
I don't think it makes sense to use the blackwing as the base engine, if all of the other rumors are true about a DOHC TT being the "ZR1" level performance option.
If the base engine comes with a DOHC TT, even a small 4.2, it seems like it would step on the toes of the "big" DOHC TT.
I'd rather have a big NA engine anyways.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/03/...#ixzz5ireLLC8u
I don't think it makes sense to use the blackwing as the base engine, if all of the other rumors are true about a DOHC TT being the "ZR1" level performance option.
If the base engine comes with a DOHC TT, even a small 4.2, it seems like it would step on the toes of the "big" DOHC TT.
I'd rather have a big NA engine anyways.
03-21-2019, 10:49 PM
#1051
And in case you need to contact a guy who is an expert on exporting cars to china, and actually knows how many are secretly bought state side, and then shipped to china, without the usa dealers knowing...
see if this random fellow who was on the front page of the new york times, and beat the USA govt and German Auto manufacturers and Dealerships ALL in civil suits... give him a ring and see if my figure of 90% of all state side sold x5's and mercedes GL suv and full size rovers, did not leave our country. from 2011 to 2015
https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02...d-luxury-cars/
GM worrying about their engine size to sell corvettes in china is perhaps the dumbest thing i have heard here in a while. Not saying you are dumb... i am agreeing with you GM might be dumb enough to think a different engine size is what the chinese who can afford a corvette are worried about, and you are simply the messenger to this reality.
All Gm would have to do is release an exceptional interior in the vette and it would be game over.... for every 1 vette sold that stayed in the states, 3 would be bought by exporters, and shipped to china and sold for a profit.
Rest assured, if caddy or buick had a sports car release with a killer interior, the chinese would buy it even if it had a v10 or 12.
see if this random fellow who was on the front page of the new york times, and beat the USA govt and German Auto manufacturers and Dealerships ALL in civil suits... give him a ring and see if my figure of 90% of all state side sold x5's and mercedes GL suv and full size rovers, did not leave our country. from 2011 to 2015
https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02...d-luxury-cars/
GM worrying about their engine size to sell corvettes in china is perhaps the dumbest thing i have heard here in a while. Not saying you are dumb... i am agreeing with you GM might be dumb enough to think a different engine size is what the chinese who can afford a corvette are worried about, and you are simply the messenger to this reality.
All Gm would have to do is release an exceptional interior in the vette and it would be game over.... for every 1 vette sold that stayed in the states, 3 would be bought by exporters, and shipped to china and sold for a profit.
Rest assured, if caddy or buick had a sports car release with a killer interior, the chinese would buy it even if it had a v10 or 12.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 11:00 PM.
03-21-2019, 11:04 PM
#1052
Help me understand why manufacturers dont just go with the highest technology and then charge people for it.
Just throwing a wild idea out, and then tell me why it would not work...
lets say GM put a smaller version of this engine in their flagship car. Lets say the engine cost every bit of 70 grand with mass production.
Okay, so you have a fully dressed z06 car with all the brakes and rear ends to hold as much power as possible, and then you throw something like this in the car, and sell it as a limited edition for 250 grand.
you know how many ferrari and lambo and mclaren owners would say... "alright, i want the 1500hp vette please."
I say 1500hp because it would come with smaller turbos or maybe a massive blower... but its capable of producing over 4000hp if a customer wanted to go crazy with it with different power adders, fuel systems, and transmissions later.
Why couldn't GM do that and put themselves in first place and make everyone's jaws drop?
Then take that technology and what you learn from it, and take it to the next car, and the next car, but in smaller more efficient packages?
And lets say you are really not a fan of OHV, and lets say GM is not either, still, a fully aluminum billet block and engine in a production car, would drop jaws, and everyone would have to have one who has big money. Instead of 1000 Porsche 918's or 500 ford GT's, GM makes about 500 of these cars with the special motors in them and charges 250 grand a pop, and they would sell for over sticker. Announce up front how many are going to be made, number them, and let people fight over the allocations (what they should have done with the zr1)
It kind of bothers me GM does not have the ***** to do something profound like this.
It would change the perception of "corvette" and even people with base vettes would be approached in the parking lot by people saying "wow, i cant believe what GM did with that new flagship vette, how do you like yours?"
I just dont see why they hover in second and third place in weird ways, when they could just destroy everyone and make headlines... it would not be hype, it would be real power, and cars breaking into the 8's in the quarter mile, before dodge does with their "angel", let alone anyone else.
Car manufacturers in the USA used to want to release the most advanced technology and show it off, maybe de-tune it for emissions, but still brag what it could do if a person wanted to turn it into a race car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Vtrfv3EIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utXT2Bbdlk
Just throwing a wild idea out, and then tell me why it would not work...
lets say GM put a smaller version of this engine in their flagship car. Lets say the engine cost every bit of 70 grand with mass production.
Okay, so you have a fully dressed z06 car with all the brakes and rear ends to hold as much power as possible, and then you throw something like this in the car, and sell it as a limited edition for 250 grand.
you know how many ferrari and lambo and mclaren owners would say... "alright, i want the 1500hp vette please."
I say 1500hp because it would come with smaller turbos or maybe a massive blower... but its capable of producing over 4000hp if a customer wanted to go crazy with it with different power adders, fuel systems, and transmissions later.
Why couldn't GM do that and put themselves in first place and make everyone's jaws drop?
Then take that technology and what you learn from it, and take it to the next car, and the next car, but in smaller more efficient packages?
And lets say you are really not a fan of OHV, and lets say GM is not either, still, a fully aluminum billet block and engine in a production car, would drop jaws, and everyone would have to have one who has big money. Instead of 1000 Porsche 918's or 500 ford GT's, GM makes about 500 of these cars with the special motors in them and charges 250 grand a pop, and they would sell for over sticker. Announce up front how many are going to be made, number them, and let people fight over the allocations (what they should have done with the zr1)
It kind of bothers me GM does not have the ***** to do something profound like this.
It would change the perception of "corvette" and even people with base vettes would be approached in the parking lot by people saying "wow, i cant believe what GM did with that new flagship vette, how do you like yours?"
I just dont see why they hover in second and third place in weird ways, when they could just destroy everyone and make headlines... it would not be hype, it would be real power, and cars breaking into the 8's in the quarter mile, before dodge does with their "angel", let alone anyone else.
Car manufacturers in the USA used to want to release the most advanced technology and show it off, maybe de-tune it for emissions, but still brag what it could do if a person wanted to turn it into a race car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Vtrfv3EIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utXT2Bbdlk
Their lawyers would freak out & the liberal press would slay them for destroying the planet. Its a big corporation & they have no stomach for that. Would be a hell of a lot of fun though.
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Mikec7z (03-21-2019)
03-21-2019, 11:11 PM
#1053
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
Posts: 29,501
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You live in a sad sad narrow little world, can't answer any questions and can't back up a single thing you say...
Here is a table of displacement based taxes you have to pay in China (the fastest growing auto market right now that everyone is scrambling to be a part of).
You will notice its no coincidence that many manufacturers are basing their engines displacements right off of this in order to sell in china .
In this Thread a few posts up I copied a text and listed a ~100 cars that had switched to 2 Liter, double overhead cam, turbo engines. Quoting the author who interviewed many car companies and wrote:
“This mad rush from larger-displacement V6s to smaller, turbocharged four-cylinders was first fueled by the automakers' need to improve fuel economy to meet customer demand. Fewer cylinders mean fewer parts, which means less internal friction. This makes the engine more efficient, so it burns less fuel.”
The aurthors words not mine.
Turbos use some of the 30% wasted energy going out the exhaust. I previously sited a WWII airplane engine that used a turbo to increase intake air pressure then after, the exhaust went through several more turbos connected directly to the prop to give 500 hp more for take off and 250 hp more when flying. Lots of wasted energy to be recovered. It’s called compound turbocharging.
I sited the silly EPA comparisons some present as the C7, M7 clearly shows the EPA test can be manipulated. To get the EPA number the owner’s manual says shift from 1st at 17 mph that forces a shift to 4th (skipping 2nd and 3rd) then shifting to 5th at 25 mph and 6th and 7th at similar low rpm, one close to 900 rpm. No one drives that way and yes it does reduce friction but meaningless.
ICE taxes in China are rather mindless as my last visit to Beijing, ~90% of the vehicles were battery powered, all electric bicycles! Look up Europe. Most countries have switched to mpg as a tax base, Yep few “big cid” engines used to achieve high mpg numbers, ~95% are small cid.
I provide this info NOT for you as I expect your closed mind will not to accept it. But for the almost 100,000 “silent majority” that have viewed it so they understand why the Blackwing, double overhead cam with independent control of intake and exhaust timing and twin turbo’s will be used in the C8. It’s being built in Bowling Green!
Fotunatly most are not in the “Round Tailight Only” mind set!
Last edited by JerryU; 03-21-2019 at 11:28 PM.
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03-21-2019, 11:31 PM
#1054
... and then some crazy dude named mike came along and linked a NYT article about another crazy dude named mike also who exports cars for a living and lives in his same town, and he claims the chinese who can afford a vette dont GAF about the engine size or the potential taxes that go along with it, its the interior they hate, and if GM put a better interior in the car, the vettes would double if not tripple their global sales overnight.
But since GM is so smart, we can rest assured that Mike, and the other Mike (who has won court cases against manufacturers) both have zero idea whats going on in the world around them, and have no idea what the chinese want
But since GM is so smart, we can rest assured that Mike, and the other Mike (who has won court cases against manufacturers) both have zero idea whats going on in the world around them, and have no idea what the chinese want
03-21-2019, 11:39 PM
#1055
Hmm, in that narrow little World, have been to China a number of times. Gave a technical talk at a large conference and visited one of the Wolds’s largest shipyards. Did the same in South Korea giving an hour talk at a technical conference and visited a car assembly plant, the Worlds largest shipyard and the largest integrated steel mill. Been to Japan a number of times as well. Visited most countries in Europe including being on the Board of our Germany company and when we sold our business to. Swedish company spent a lot of time with their managers and engineers, Gave technical talks in Denmark, the Czech Republic and Romania same with South America and Mexico. Not so small or sad!-----------------
I provide this info NOT for you as I expect your closed mind will not to accept it. But for the almost 100,000 “silent majority” that have viewed it so they understand why the Blackwing, double overhead cam with independent control of intake and exhaust timing and twin turbo’s will be used in the C8. It’s being built in Bowling Green!
Fotunatly most are not in the “Round Tailight Only” mind set!
I provide this info NOT for you as I expect your closed mind will not to accept it. But for the almost 100,000 “silent majority” that have viewed it so they understand why the Blackwing, double overhead cam with independent control of intake and exhaust timing and twin turbo’s will be used in the C8. It’s being built in Bowling Green!
Fotunatly most are not in the “Round Tailight Only” mind set!
3 passports back in the day 2 USA & an Irish for EU ease of travel, quick line at Heathrow
Am also adding electric FWD for an AWD car to the DOHC V8 & DCT in the C8. Think they will do a Chevy NSX.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-21-2019 at 11:42 PM.
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03-22-2019, 04:47 AM
#1056
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
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^^^
Interesting! Was only in Australia once, when the British “financial’” company that bought the Swedish company we sold our business to, soon after they devalued the Krona, was considering buying another welding company ”downunder.” Long flight.
A week after I get back from CA we’re going on a Cruise starting in Thailand, going to Vietnam, Cambodia, ending in Hong Kong. Long flight over a great circle landing first in South Korea.
Yep filled up a few passports with full page Visas each time to China, Brazil, Russia, etc
Interesting! Was only in Australia once, when the British “financial’” company that bought the Swedish company we sold our business to, soon after they devalued the Krona, was considering buying another welding company ”downunder.” Long flight.A week after I get back from CA we’re going on a Cruise starting in Thailand, going to Vietnam, Cambodia, ending in Hong Kong. Long flight over a great circle landing first in South Korea.
Yep filled up a few passports with full page Visas each time to China, Brazil, Russia, etc
Last edited by JerryU; 03-22-2019 at 05:10 AM.
03-22-2019, 07:51 AM
#1057
Pro
03-22-2019, 08:40 AM
#1058
While awaiting the latest, I went back and re-read All Corvettes are Red by James Schefter. The experience is a combination of “here we go again” and “boy have things changed”.
Here’s a quote from Dave Hill, the Chief Engineer at the time, “Corvette owners want performance not gadgets” Hill said, “They want to squirt through traffic and they don’t want lag from turbocharging. And we can give it to them without gimmicks like thirty-two valve engines”
At the same time, Hill was trying to ensure that the C5 was designed to take a backup engine in case the new Gen III engine failed, specifically, a somewhat larger version of the 32 valve Cadillac Northstar. Dave had come from Cadillac and was familiar with that engine. "package-protect" was the term used. That design attempt failed so the C5 was Gen III or nothing.
So here we go again, push rod vs ohv and an "optional" Cad engine in the background?
Another tid bit, the benchmark car was the Nissan 300ZX
Here’s a quote from Dave Hill, the Chief Engineer at the time, “Corvette owners want performance not gadgets” Hill said, “They want to squirt through traffic and they don’t want lag from turbocharging. And we can give it to them without gimmicks like thirty-two valve engines”
At the same time, Hill was trying to ensure that the C5 was designed to take a backup engine in case the new Gen III engine failed, specifically, a somewhat larger version of the 32 valve Cadillac Northstar. Dave had come from Cadillac and was familiar with that engine. "package-protect" was the term used. That design attempt failed so the C5 was Gen III or nothing.
So here we go again, push rod vs ohv and an "optional" Cad engine in the background?
Another tid bit, the benchmark car was the Nissan 300ZX
Last edited by Kodiak Bear; 03-22-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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Mikec7z (03-22-2019)
03-22-2019, 10:35 AM
#1059
Team Owner
The CT6 never got off the ground in US sales, thus is being dropped in the USA. The few CT6's to be available with the Blackwing V8 are a drop in the bucket in sales. Meaningless to the bottom line. Cadillac sells ~150,000 in the USA out of ~350,000 total worldwide.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-22-2019 at 10:39 AM.
03-22-2019, 11:25 AM
#1060
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
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Looks like this is settled. The C8 will come (at least initially) with a "LT2" engine.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ngray-z51.html
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ngray-z51.html