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C8 may kill Corvette

 
Old 01-18-2019, 08:10 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jschindler View Post
Let's put it this way. The Corvette has frequently sold 35,000 plus units a year. What other sports car comes even remotely close? The current formula has only worked for 65 years. But if I'm right that it is not replacing the front engine car, all will be fine.
lol. The only front engine Corvette after 2019 will be the Camaro. But yes the formula has worked for years and wonít change: cheap priced sports car with top tier performance, this time with the engine in the back.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
I think we should be a bit careful before calling someone's response "really dumb" when the rest of your post wasn't too intelligent to begin with. Let's examine the quoted text:



Technically, that's a correct statement. The phrase "mid-engine" doesn't mean what you're implying it means. It simply means: "Engine is between the axles". And, the Corvettes since C4 (and perhaps further back) have been that. It's part of why they're so well balanced in the handling department for the most part. What you're implying by your statement is a rear-mid. So if you want to pull someone's statement apart, make sure you do it carefully. Certainly, rear-mids provide a lower polar moment of inertia (which is good and bad!) and they generally give more mass where it's needed: over the driving wheels. Further, they usually put less stress on the front brakes, which can help with slowing at the track.

But, again, technically Corvettes have been ME for a while. The engine has just been in front of the driver instead of behind it.
wrong.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:15 AM
  #43  
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The Corvette has evolved from Chevrolet’s early attempt in 1953 to market an American sports car, to the C7 which is a large heavy, and extremely powerful GT racer. This “mid-engine” iteration should survive nicely. It may even appeal to a broader and younger market, provided it remains the value leader it is today. It will most likely see any number of revisions, even the addition of electric motors, before the first op-ed on the C9 Forum in 5-6 years.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:18 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Tell that to Sears, Blockbuster, Kodak... the formula that "worked" may not be the exact same formula the will continue to work. The evolution of the Corvette into a ME car will simply keep it relevant and allow GM to push performance even further. They can keep the parts of the formula in place to ensure they keep selling 30K+ units. In my view, the only thing that will kill them is a hideous design (it won't be) or a crazy price (it won't be).
Sears, Blockbuster, and Kodak went under for holding onto their past and not evolving. Exactly what Chevy is NOT doing with the revolutionary C8.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:30 AM
  #45  
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I bought my first Vette last August for a lot of reasons but in the end it was simply because the C7 is a fantastic sports car. I doubt it will be the first and last one I ever own and as such believe the new car has every chance to elevate the platform to new levels and keep the Corvette moving on into the future.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:04 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
Some people will bitch and moan about some benign design thing that they just can't live with and pass up the C8 over it. Some will continue their boycott of tail lights that aren't round and wax poetic about flip up head lights. Some will not buy because there is no manual. In the end we May lose a few buyers changing to a mid engine platform, but we will likely gain quite a few more that want in on a sports car layout that has been exclusively the domain of supercars for decades (with the exception of a few underwhelming examples like the MR2 Spyder).
That statement is the biggest unknown and likely flaw in any analysis of predicting C8 mid-engine sales. Where are the gains going to come from? Let's be honest there aren't many people from the huge pool of owners of minivans, suvs or pickups at any price point who are going to all of a sudden buy a ME C8; similarly you aren't going to get many converts who are presently buying high end sedans to switch to a much less utilitarian C8; and beyond that, the biggest selling 2 seat sports car in the USA is the Miata - there aren't many people cross-shopping a $30k Miata with a $70k Corvette. The entire 2 seat sports car market in the US for cars costing $55-120k beyond the Corvette is about 23,000 vehicles sold annually, of which there are only 3 competing models that are mid-engine: 14,000 of those are Porsche 911's & 718's and the other ME is the Alfa 4C selling less than 300 per year. I would suggest there won't be a huge number of Porsche buyers saying "I'd rather have a Corvette" and even if you get 90% of the Alfa buyers, so what. In addition the number of people cross-shopping a Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, Ford GT or Bugatti with any Corvette is at best a handful, and a ME Corvette isn't going to change that.
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:33 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Tell that to Sears, Blockbuster, Kodak... the formula that "worked" may not be the exact same formula the will continue to work. The evolution of the Corvette into a ME car will simply keep it relevant and allow GM to push performance even further. They can keep the parts of the formula in place to ensure they keep selling 30K+ units. In my view, the only thing that will kill them is a hideous design (it won't be) or a crazy price (it won't be).
I get what you are saying, but maybe you are not getting what I’m saying. The C7 proved GM is willing on staying relevant. It is a big departure from previous Corvettes. Mid engine is not a necessary component. How has Porsche survived with the archaic rear engine 911? Why do Ferrari and Lamborghini still make front engine cars that people still pay well over $500,000 for?

Originally Posted by smithers View Post


Chevy won’t be able to build enough to meet the demand when the first older guy buys one it makes him the coolest guy at Cracker Barrel. Then all the old guys will want one!


Not when they find out can’t get golf clubs or a weeks groceries in it

Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I understand... I'm suggesting they will find a way to keep a lot of that and still evolve the car. Just my bet that GM knows what their customers want (all of their customers) and will make it work. If they don't on the C8 then I believe they will keep a FE car.

P.S. When you say the benefit of a ME design is lost on the majority, that's a sad statement to me. A sports car is about performance at its core... otherwise, it's a glorified grocery getter and there are better options. That's just my view.
Yes to both. I’ve been arounf an awfully ling time and I see it all the time. I’m like you, I’m into performance. We are not by a long shot the typical buyer. You just have to look at the issues philosophically. All this old guys who buy them as a middle (or later) life crisis cars is the reason the car is so affordable. It’s a $100,000 plus car if they only sell 5,000 a year. And by that, I mean any Corvette. BTW, I am an old guy now I think. I just turned 66, am now retired and on Medicare. But I’m not “right”. The Ducati in my avatar is one of three fast bikes I have. And yes, they get ridden fast

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Old 01-18-2019, 10:39 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by jschindler View Post






Yes to both. Iíve been arounf an awfully ling time and I see it all the time. Iím like you, Iím into performance. We are not by a long shot the typical buyer. You just have to look at the issues philosophically. All this old guys who buy them as a middle (or later) life crisis cars is the reason the car is so affordable. Itís a $100,000 plus car if they only sell 5,000 a year. And by that, I mean any Corvette. BTW, I am an old guy now I think. I just turned 66, am now retired and on Medicare. But Iím not ďrightĒ. The Ducati in my avatar is one of three fast bikes I have. And yes, they get ridden fast
Beautiful Duc. I'm thinking to get back to motorcycles, Monster 1200s or BMW S1000r, not rr, that's what I'm leaning toward. Had half dozen Ninjas over the years but Kawi just doesn't have what I want. One thing about a Monster, they are unmistakable now or 20 years old, I like that.

PC
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:20 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by FringbirdAloha View Post
wrong.
Exactly what was wrong in my post? Itemize and show your work, please.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:32 AM
  #50  
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The real issue will be how good the new Corvette is and most of all will be the cost. The best way to kill the Corvette is to make it so expensive that the ordinary buyer will not be able to afford it or will buy something else.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:51 AM
  #51  
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:56 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Art17 View Post
The real issue will be how good the new Corvette is and most of all will be the cost. The best way to kill the Corvette is to make it so expensive that the ordinary buyer will not be able to afford it or will buy something else.
Yep. The corvette sells well because it's affordable in terms of purchase and maintenance costs. A somewhat higher purchase price will be tolerated to an extent as long as its performance is acceptable and comparable because the maintenance costs are lower than more "exotic" sports cars. However I do think there needs to be an affordable, higher volume base model. That's what pays the bills and allows for the higher priced low volume variants to be made. If the C8 price goes to viper or nsx levels right off the bat, the vette could suffer their same fate.

Last edited by C6ness; 01-18-2019 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:12 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post

Maybe the car becomes a $120,000 car with 10,000 units a year and that is what GM wants from a strategic perspective for whatever the reason. It doesn't kill the Corvette, it just changes it.
In before the "the C7 ZR1 starts at that price point and they only sell X a year" crowd shows up.

Apples and oranges comparison IMHO. Chevy limits the number, and to me, the ZR1 is a kinda "half pregnant" car that finds itself stuck between a "plain old Corvette" and a "supercar". I think that is a real reason they went wilder on the styling (yes, there are legitimate benefits of the aero but most will never use it), simply to try and differentiate it from the "lesser Corvettes".

Originally Posted by Dt86 View Post
C4 production 360,000
C6 production 215,000

Yup nobody liked them.
A bit of an unfair comparison though.

C4 production was 12 years.
C6 production was 8 years.

By average, yes the C4 was higher, but not by a huge number. And I like C4s, so this isn't a "hate on C4s" post.

Originally Posted by GoldRose85 View Post
With all these doom and gloom predictions. remember Bowling Green has many employees that GM needs to pay and keep working, so reducing the number of units produced and increasing the price will furlow those/those employees. GM knows that and needs high production numbers to keep those people employed and still make a profit.
Price will be inline with the current model and production numbers will still be 30-40 units a year
Well, haven't there been statements/comments/rumors of two cars being built at BG?
Originally Posted by LIStingray View Post
That statement is the biggest unknown and likely flaw in any analysis of predicting C8 mid-engine sales. Where are the gains going to come from?
Well, similarly, it is also the biggest unknown and likely flaw in any analysis of predicting how many previous/current Corvette owners won't buy the ME. All we see (and alot of statements/beliefs are being based on) a handful of individuals on a car forum who say they won't buy the new car, but the new car isn't even acknowledged by GM, or announced, or released, or anything. All we have seen is a few spy shots of disguised test cars of some sort of ME vehicle. When the real car launches, people could also change their mind and suddenly jump on board.
Originally Posted by jschindler View Post
Not when they find out can’t get golf clubs or a weeks groceries in it
Why is this (especially the groceries) really a requirement? Golf clubs? Ok fine, I get that one I guess (even though I don't play). But groceries? The last thing I would take to buy my weekly groceries is a Corvette of any generation. Stop off on the way home for a few items? Sure. But stocking up? No, truck or SUV please.

I think the whole "luggage space" thing is way overplayed. My wife and I took a 67 vert (loaned to me by a customer) on our honeymoon in late winter. Even with our heavier winter clothes, everything fit in the back of that with no problem. Hell, we even came back with the top down. People need to learn they don't need to take their house with them when they travel.

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Old 01-18-2019, 12:21 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
I think we should be a bit careful before calling someone's response "really dumb" when the rest of your post wasn't too intelligent to begin with. Let's examine the quoted text:



Technically, that's a correct statement. The phrase "mid-engine" doesn't mean what you're implying it means. It simply means: "Engine is between the axles". And, the Corvettes since C4 (and perhaps further back) have been that. It's part of why they're so well balanced in the handling department for the most part. What you're implying by your statement is a rear-mid. So if you want to pull someone's statement apart, make sure you do it carefully. Certainly, rear-mids provide a lower polar moment of inertia (which is good and bad!) and they generally give more mass where it's needed: over the driving wheels. Further, they usually put less stress on the front brakes, which can help with slowing at the track.

But, again, technically Corvettes have been ME for a while. The engine has just been in front of the driver instead of behind it.
Vettes haven't been 'Mid Engined" since the C5. You don't know what polar moment of inertia means. " ....do it carefully." indeed.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:22 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
Exactly what was wrong in my post? Itemize and show your work, please.
Well, what you posted was true but also not true. It's kinda like how the public calls lights that are placed in the ceiling of a house, recessed lighting but contractors call them can lights. They are the same thing. It is completely true that the original definition of mid-engine was any placement of an engine between the axles. Definitions change. Blonde hair was, and arguably still is, any shade of yellow which is whiter and brighter than a post-it note. But today we have 'dirty blonde', 'strawberry blonde', etc, when in fact none of them are blonde. Once you add another color to blonde, it becames a shade of the other color instead, so 'dirty blonde' is really just light brown (something like 90% of the world has brown or black hair) but the person wants to think they are blonde so they claim it regardless and now it is the norm. Engine placement is much the same. Most cars through history have had the engine in front of the driver and most of those engines have been above or behind the front axle. Yet they are still referred to commonly as front engine. The DMV does it, the manufacturer does it, and the public does it. So, at some point the paper definition starts to have little meaning and begins to change as useage changes. Probably the last mid-engine car where the driver was behind the engine was built in the 30s when the seating area was over the rear wheels and the engine was in the literal middle of the car. In modern accepted verbiage, mid-engine is therefore when the engine is behind the cab, unless it's a Porsche, then we just pretend that they are still rear engine even though the engine has been creeping forward for decades.

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Old 01-18-2019, 12:22 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by FringbirdAloha View Post


wrong.
Right.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:24 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
Vettes haven't been 'Mid Engined" since the C5. You don't know what polar moment of inertia means. " ....do it carefully." indeed.
Really? As I said to the last guy: "show your work". Let's go buddy. This should be fun.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:37 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
Exactly what was wrong in my post? Itemize and show your work, please.
Read my followup post. Maybe you will understand.

For the record, a mid engine sports car is a car with the engine behind the driver and in front of the rear axle with approximately 55-60% of its weight on the rear wheels. This has been the definition of a mid engine car for a long time. Benefits, better traction when accelerating, weight transfer to the front when braking and low polar moment of inertia.

These benefits are conveyed due to the laws of physics.

The fictitious front mid classification receives none of these benefits!
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:41 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by C2C3C4C6 View Post
Do you think such a radical departure from the proven Corvette formula has the potential of killing off the Vette? We will see.
Probably not as much potential as it has to cement the vette's reputation one of the greatest cars of all time.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:46 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
Really? As I said to the last guy: "show your work". Let's go buddy. This should be fun.
I'm sorry I can't respond properly as it would be against the rules of this forum.
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