Dual clutch concern
#21
Melting Slicks
Here is what I drive while I am waiting for the C8. It's a BMW M4 and it has the DCT. It was the first one I have owned. Before this I bounce around from Auto to Stick depending on the deal.
I can tell you that there are definitely pros and cons. Pros: At speed, this transmission is insanely quick and precise. You can tweak the shifting dynamics on the BMW to suit your style. It is an automatic and would argue with anyone who says they are not. The Cons: They do take some time to get use to, especially at VERY low speeds. They can be jerky and jumpy, especially when cold. Backing out of the garage on a cold day can be a bit of an adventure. I would never let my wife drive the M4 without me in the car (Bonus!).
So, how do I feel about the C8 and a DCT? It would not be my first choice, I would probably go with a stick if available....HOWEVER, having lived with one for awhile now I can tell you that it won't be a show-stopper for me.
Last edited by fasttoys; 07-12-2019 at 07:30 AM.
#22
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Just kidding, fasttoys, but I'd take boring, smooth at slow speed, and inexpensive (to maintain in the long run).
#23
Safety Car
Drove a dct from Porsche and to best describe it, felt like a manual except it changed gears for you, and if you were in the manual mode, felt like a manual, except no clutch delays and I stand up and down shift. Loved it
#24
Race Director
Driven my buddies GTR. . only thing noticeably different than an auto are initial takeoffs. After that, car can drive like an auto with lightening fast *****. Manual mode is still fun. I am going to miss the third pedal as well, but DCT's just make a faster and better car.
#25
Melting Slicks
Driven my mothers new PDK 911 a lot and its an auto that fakes the TC at redlights... I mean its responsive, and quick but a FAR cry from the ability to have a 3rd pedeal and skip gears, or dump/ ******.
#26
thanks
#27
Race Director
Yep. People need to stop soapboxing for the DCT and simply acknowledge that it's not a manual. Even with it making the car quicker many of us simply don't care, because manuals represent a decent portion of the fun of a sports car.
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#28
Instructor
Might be just me, but I enjoy driving a manual just as much as an automatic.I haven't driven many autos, so it's kinda a novelty to me, an unnecessary luxury.
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#29
#30
Can't speak for all DCTs, but PDK is far superior to any manual. Unfortunately it has only one drawback: it's boring, at least to me. Otherwise, I've seen mediocre drivers transformed into superior drivers because of PDK. Some guys could never master heel/toe, but PDK took care of that problem. Moreover, if you are in to drag racing, PDK's launch control enables anyone to execute a perfect launch every time. Porsches with PDK are at least .3 sec faster in a quarter than MT cars, and that's with a good MT driver.
#32
I've owned DCTs. I think DCTs are great, and PDK is the best. They do shift faster.
However, if one is a lover of manual transmissions, it cannot be denied that DCTs are more BORING. I tried very hard to love DCTs as much, but I just can't. You may try to convince yourself it's just as much fun like I did, but after a year, maybe two, maybe 3, you'll find yourself yearning for a manual again if you love them like I do. That makes it a deal-breaker for me in my sports car.
The great M7 is the primary reason I came back to the Corvette world after nearly a decade absence. I was bored with paddle shifters.
I will not purchase an auto C8 as long as there are fun to drive manual sports cars still available. They don't have to equal C8 performance. I value handling and fun-to-drive factor far more than blinding straight-line speed.
However, if one is a lover of manual transmissions, it cannot be denied that DCTs are more BORING. I tried very hard to love DCTs as much, but I just can't. You may try to convince yourself it's just as much fun like I did, but after a year, maybe two, maybe 3, you'll find yourself yearning for a manual again if you love them like I do. That makes it a deal-breaker for me in my sports car.
The great M7 is the primary reason I came back to the Corvette world after nearly a decade absence. I was bored with paddle shifters.
I will not purchase an auto C8 as long as there are fun to drive manual sports cars still available. They don't have to equal C8 performance. I value handling and fun-to-drive factor far more than blinding straight-line speed.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-12-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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#33
Le Mans Master
I guess I've been driving manual transmissions too long - after 62 years - I don't find them interesting at all even though my two daily drivers are both MN transmissions....
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#34
Le Mans Master
For me nothing can replace the feel of stepping on the clutch and moving the shifter to another gear. Each shift almost has its own personality based on feel. I could care less how fast it shifts as I don’t race my car. PDK, DCT, makes no difference to me as both lack clutch pedals and shifters. As much as I would love to get a mid engine C8, no manual is a dealbreaker.
#35
Le Mans Master
For me nothing can replace the feel of stepping on the clutch and moving the shifter to another gear. Each shift almost has its own personality based on feel. I could care less how fast it shifts as I don’t race my car. PDK, DCT, makes no difference to me as both lack clutch pedals and shifters. As much as I would love to get a mid engine C8, no manual is a dealbreaker.
My car is a daily driver and never sees the track. The manual trans provides the majority of the enjoyment for me as you can only use a limited amount of the handing, braking and acceleration on the street without being a danger to others.
If it was a dedicated track car and IF I was only interested in running the fastest lap possible, I would go DCT. But even then, I likely would choose manual for the enjoyment and be content running a bit slower.
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#36
Race Director
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SouthernSOn you and I had a private conversation. I pointed out to you that you can buy the full software package the Mercedes Dealer uses and have the very best manuals right from the manufacturer. Oh its less than 20 dollars on ebay for this. I did tell you that. I own two mercedes cars and do all the maintenance myself using this software and its actually very easy.
When my mother passes there will no longer be a MB in my garage.
Last edited by SouthernSon; 07-12-2019 at 11:02 AM.
#37
And if your car is ever going to see the track, it's DCT all the way.
Just how much faster is it than a manual?
Porsche's new 718 Cayman GT4 is EIGHT SECONDS FASTER around Nordschliefe when fitted with PDK vs. manual. This is an astonishing and significant difference.
Yes, driving a GOOD manual is a lot of fun. But some of us want maximum performance and maximum flexibility from our investments.
So, no, I won't stop "soapboxing" about a transmission that is delightful when executed well and 99% of the people in here who drone on and on about manuals have never actually driven a good modern transmission.
Last edited by Skullbussa; 07-12-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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#38
Burning Brakes
#39
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You couldn't find the answer to this general, non-Corvette specific question through a Google or Youtube search?? And instead clutter the board with more useless threads.
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 07-12-2019 at 02:58 PM.
#40
There is *a lot* more difference between a good and not-so-good DCT and a good and not-so-good TC Auto, then between a good DCT and a good TC Auto.
A well sorted/programmed and properly dimensioned and cooled ZF A8 feels very much the same as a Porsche PDK (DCT). In fact Porsche itself has gone back and forth between the two types across many of its vehicles (Panamera, Cayenne, Macan). I bet that most people here could not tell if they were driving a Panamera TC or a Panamera PDK.
On the other hand the differences between a well sorted ZF TC implementation and the A6s that have been in Camaros, Mustangs and Corvettes are night and day.
As are the differences between a Porsche PDK and the Nissan GTR DCT.
The current trend is that DCTs and TC automatics are becoming very similar and are using many similar strategies. For example early lock-up on TCs make them more like DCTs and wet clutches/slip programming in DCTs make them more like TCs.
So, net/net, it is all about how well sorted this Tremec DCT will be. For marketing purposes, if your sports car will have only an auto transmission, the market dictates that it must be a DCT, or you are perceived to be inferior, when in fact a proper TC may actually be better.
How can you tell if the Tremec is properly sorted? Road and Track, Car and Driver, MT, etc can take them to their test locations and perform repeated full power launches, like they do on PDK Porsches. If the transmission is properly sorted, it will not build heat and will be able to be launched again and again. If it is like the junk transmission on the GTR, it will go into limp mode and/or self destruct.
A well sorted/programmed and properly dimensioned and cooled ZF A8 feels very much the same as a Porsche PDK (DCT). In fact Porsche itself has gone back and forth between the two types across many of its vehicles (Panamera, Cayenne, Macan). I bet that most people here could not tell if they were driving a Panamera TC or a Panamera PDK.
On the other hand the differences between a well sorted ZF TC implementation and the A6s that have been in Camaros, Mustangs and Corvettes are night and day.
As are the differences between a Porsche PDK and the Nissan GTR DCT.
The current trend is that DCTs and TC automatics are becoming very similar and are using many similar strategies. For example early lock-up on TCs make them more like DCTs and wet clutches/slip programming in DCTs make them more like TCs.
So, net/net, it is all about how well sorted this Tremec DCT will be. For marketing purposes, if your sports car will have only an auto transmission, the market dictates that it must be a DCT, or you are perceived to be inferior, when in fact a proper TC may actually be better.
How can you tell if the Tremec is properly sorted? Road and Track, Car and Driver, MT, etc can take them to their test locations and perform repeated full power launches, like they do on PDK Porsches. If the transmission is properly sorted, it will not build heat and will be able to be launched again and again. If it is like the junk transmission on the GTR, it will go into limp mode and/or self destruct.
Last edited by baron95; 07-12-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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