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The link below will take you to an article that does not mention the Corvette automobile at all. Instead, it parts the curtains just a bit into the future marketing plans of automobile makers in general. The term of art is apparently going to be "Volts Are Us.".
The "Volts Are Us" motto defines the ultimate goal: plunge a dagger through the heart of the internal combustion engine once and for all. Actually, it's been a goal for some time but battery technology hasn't been there plus replacement batteries are periodically required and insanely expensive. So, the goal has languished but has not been abandoned. Instead, the plan has been to wait for technology to catch up and then implement a marketing redirection via a cheaper manufacturing and parts cost template.
Battery capacity is now slowly but surely increasing and power demands of electric and electronic devices are slowly but surely decreasing. The goal is closer than ever to being realized.
For the Corvette enthusiast's group, the take-a-way should be that the rumored electric motor augmented Corvette slated to arrive in the first half of the 2020 decade is just a pit stop along the way to an electrically powered (and electronically optimized) Corvette. This hybrid Corvette would ease the marketplace into acceptance of a new propulsion system and once enthusiasts experience the tremendous torque available with an electric vehicle, the thinking goes that they will be mesmerized. Realistic? Maybe not for those of us that grew up loving the sound and fury that goes hand and hand with winding up an American V-8 engine, but for the younger generation that all of the automotive manufacturers are chasing? Maybe.
The marketing department tea leaf readers have noticed that the marketplace for sedans has tanked and the manufacturers are falling all over themselves dumping them from their lineups.
To some industry decision makers - looking at you, Mary Barra - that means that the prevailing wind has changed away from what has been the traditional buyer.
If that's so, the reasoning goes, the future lies with the current 30 somethings that are buying Hellcats and pickups for their fun vehicles and SUVs for their regular rides. They think: "Let's augment fun vehicles with electric motors to enhance performance for now and transition to full electric as soon as technology will allow it."
But what about Corvettes? Well, if technology is going to allow all electric vehicles in 5 years or so (on a manufacturing and maintenance cost similar to the current costs or less), the group think for GM management would be to satisfy the current typical Corvette buyer with one last screaming V-8, or turbocharged something, but ease them into accepting new ideas by combining what is coming with what exists today: Make the electric motor augmented Corvette the ultimate performance machine, and the ultimate status symbol; while at the same time prepping the marketplace for the all electric Corvette to come.
Anyway, if you're interested, take a few moments to read the following article and then please share your thoughts.
Electric cars are good for making a few passes at the drag strip. Some Tesla are very fast, and very consistent. However, on a road course and winding back roads, electric cars are a disaster. They just don't have enough energy capacity. The batteries are depleted in no time. Not only do the batteries deplete, but the performance does as well. I don't see this changing any time soon.
There is a point of view, backed by some interesting statistics, that suggests people are not really backing off sedans, but waiting for an all-electric one that is affordable and meets their needs.
If that is indeed the case then trucks and SUVs are next and GM's idea that the market is "moving toward them" is not a sufficient answer. The idea that electrics "don't have sufficient power" is, of course ridiculous. Granted they are not consistent on a track, but who really cares? How many people track their cars? The market for people who won't buy an electric because they track their cars is insignificant. From a marketing standpoint that segment is not worth considering.
One hurdle that must be overcome is this idea that "An electric does not have a 500 mile range, therefore I am unable to drive it back and forth to work." It's a non-problem. Another non-problem is the idea that "the grid can't take it." First of all, it can, especially at midnight when there is a ton of over-capacity. So plug the thing in at night and it's ready the next morning. Also, grow the grid. There's plenty of sun hitting the earth if we're willing to grab it. In my area "fueling" an electric costs about 1/4 the cost of gasoline. In the Northeast it's probably closer to 1/2. A third factor is government. I'm not a believer in human caused climate change myself because I've actually studied it and seen the fraud involved in the statistics and modeling. These guys are clearly cooking the data. That's what "hide the decline" is all about. There is no hockey stick. But the fact is a whole lot of people are freaked-out and governments are going to be forcing us to electrics whether we like it or not.
Plan accordingly.
Last edited by mschuyler; Dec 21, 2018 at 01:38 PM.
From: Philadelphia PA (Birthplace of the USA, UNESCO World Heritage City)
Originally Posted by Michael A
Electric cars are good for making a few passes at the drag strip. Some Tesla are very fast, and very consistent. However, on a road course and winding back roads, electric cars are a disaster. They just don't have enough energy capacity. The batteries are depleted in no time. Not only do the batteries deplete, but the performance does as well. I don't see this changing any time soon.
Tell that to the McLaren P1, recent Nurburgring lap record holder. Gas+electric. But I agree, full electric is not there yet when it comes to sports cars. We'll see how the new Tesla Roadster performs on the road courses once it's released.
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; Dec 21, 2018 at 02:27 PM.
Yep, electric cars have their place. I recall as a kid the Bond Bread trucks were all electric! Big lead acid batteries.
That is where they belong, in delivery trucks! Agree they may be fine for a grocery getter if you live close to town, but using 2017 statistics ~85% of the electricity generated in the US comes from burning hydrocarbon fuels. So EV folks should not feel so superior in "helping the planet!"
IMO, improving the efficiency of and using smaller cid gasoline engines combined with a light weight F1 type KERS system that generates it's own stored electricity from wasted braking energy is the next step! F1 has improved their race car efficiency by over 50% using a 1.6 Liter engine with a ~30 lb 160 hp motor/generator and ~30 lb battery. They are beating old track records made with larger cid V12's and are now are not allowed to refuel during the race!
I always chuckle when I see the Tesla very fast 1/4 miles times. Reminds me of my 19 foot electric pontoon boat. We're only allowed to use electric on the lake I live on. At about 1/4 throttle on a $3500 Minn Kota electric outdrive, designed for large boats not a trolling motor, get about 3 to 4 hour battery life on 4 very heavy marine 12 volt batteries. At full throttle that drops to under 1/2 hour!
With the pontoon boat, much more than 1/3 throttle was useless as you were not going up on plane!
Note: Pic shows 80% fossel fuel BUT if you add the 5% from burring biomass it's ~85%!
When I can buy an electric Vette, take it to the road race track, drive all four 30 minute sessions, driving flat out, without having to wait for the car to recharge.
{That is the car can get recharged in the 1:30 minutes I have between sessions, and no longer.}
^^^
Have to be like the EV race car series they have now- need to change batteries! That is a lot of heavy battery packs you'll have to tow in a trailer behind the Vette when going to the track!
That is where they belong, in delivery trucks! Agree they may be fine for a grocery getter if you live close to town, but using 2017 statistics ~85% of the electricity generated in the US comes from burning hydrocarbon fuels. So EV folks should not feel so superior in "helping the planet!"
I have not said one word about "helping the planet," myself. I like the idea of filling up my car at 1/4 the cost I pay today. And EVs aren't just for "close-in" grocery getting. The EPA says a daily commute of 50 miles is high and the average commute is 16 miles. This is well within range of current EVs, so this 'range anxiety' is completely misplaced and silly. If any individual commutes far longer than this, that isn't the point We're talking averages here, not outliers. And your average commuter could easily use an EV today. Of course, there are not many choices today, but that will change.
You keep trotting out this graph, but when I look around I get different figures. For example, this government source: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 gives fossil fuels at 62%, nuclear at 20%, and renewnables at 17%. And though solar power is a small percentage today, it's growing at the rate of 40% per year. As costs are going down efficiency is going up. Whether your favorite graph is right or not, one thing for certain is that it is old. Today's figures don't count for 2025 when that graph will be far different. And whether we like it or not, there is a clear move toward EVs. Large car makers such as VW, Volvo, and now even GM are jumping on the EV bandwagon as fast as they can. And if the study I cited above is correct, people are waiting for them right now and THAT accounts for the fall off in sedan sales. And even if today EVs get electricity largely from hydrocarbons, there is a choice that ICE vehicles do not easily provide. Electricity production sources can and will change. Remember that the government is pushing here and is a big factor in all of this.
This is not about Corvettes and the track. Chances are the majority of people here will have at least one EV in their garage by 2025.
Last edited by mschuyler; Dec 21, 2018 at 06:22 PM.
^^^
It's not MY data the graph and info are from: eia as noted with their logo on what I posted! Here is who they are:
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) is a principal agency of the U.S. Federal Statistical System responsible for collecting, analyzing, and disseminating energy information to promote sound policymaking, efficient markets, and public understanding of energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment. EIA programs cover data on coal, petroleum, natural gas, electric, renewable and nuclear energy.
Have no idea why the same organization has two sets of info! Sounds like the government! Yep sounds good to pay 1/4 of what folks buying gas pay! Who is paying for the roads your EV rides on??? Some states are addressing the issue but someway EV's will have to pay a road tax = to what the average gasoline cars pay in Federal and State gas tax!
Yep folks can "hope" for the typical hockey stick graph some use when "projecting the future." I recall using similar data in 1980's for projecting arc welding robot growth from "Top Experts" on the subject! Did a detailed analysis on future Argon sales and developed a program in collaboration with Unimation so we could find who was going to be using all these robots so we could get 5 year Argon supply contracts! Never happened!
We'll see where EV growth goes and how long it takes!
To me, for an electric to be viable it would need a range of 500 miles and then be capable of recharging in 15 minutes. That would match what I have now. I can go over 500 miles, the car not me, and I can fill up, use restroom, and get some fast food to hit the road again in about 15 minutes. If an electric cannot do what my current vehicle can, then I don’t want one.
Have no idea why the same organization has two sets of info! Sounds like the government! Yep sounds good to pay 1/4 of what folks buying gas pay! Who is paying for the roads your EV rides on??? Some states are addressing the issue but someway EV's will have to pay a road tax = to what the average gasoline cars pay in Federal and State gas tax!
That's a real problem and ironic as hell. Here the government is pushing us towards more efficient vehicles, so we go buy them, get better gas mileage, and the next thing you know the government is saying they aren't getting enough money from gas taxes to fix roads.
General Motors plans to go 100 percent electric, the Detroit automaker announced Mond
Originally Posted by mschuyler
That's a real problem and ironic as hell. Here the government is pushing us towards more efficient vehicles, so we go buy them, get better gas mileage, and the next thing you know the government is saying they aren't getting enough money from gas taxes to fix roads.
The C8 is the last Gasoline engine Corvette!!! THIS IS NOT NEW NEWS!!
Gasoline engines will be phased out in the next 10 years,
General Motors plans to go 100 percent electric, the Detroit automaker announced Monday.GM Is Going All Electric, Will Ditch Gas- and Diesel-Powered Cars
GM currently offers one extended-range electric vehicle, the Chevrolet Bolt EV, but will add two others within 18 months, said Executive Vice President Mark Reuss, with “at least 20 to be in the line-up by 2023. In addition, the company is developing a new truck platform powered by hydrogen fuel cells, dubbed Surus, short for Silent Utility Rover Universal Superstructure.
GM's goal is to abandon the internal combustion engine entirely. At some yet-unspecified point, all of its products will draw power either from batteries or hydrogen. Fuel cells are sometimes referred to as “refillable batteries.” They rely on devices called stacks to combine hydrogen and oxygen from the air to produce water vapor and electric current. That power is used to drive the same sort of motors used in battery-cars.
Fuel cells are sometimes referred to as “refillable batteries.” They rely on devices called stacks to combine hydrogen and oxygen from the air to produce water vapor and electric current. That power is used to drive the same sort of motors used in battery-cars.
Batteries are storage devices to store electricity for use in the motor. Fuel cells store hydrogen for use in the motor. They store power for use in propulsion of the vehicle.
No different than a gas tank. It stores gasoline for use in an engine used to propel a vehicle.
All work basicly the same, energy is stored in some type of container, which is then used to power a motor/engine that powers the vehicle.
That's a real problem and ironic as hell. Here the government is pushing us towards more efficient vehicles, so we go buy them, get better gas mileage, and the next thing you know the government is saying they aren't getting enough money from gas taxes to fix roads.
Yep, there is no FREE lunch if we want roads to drive on!
This is an article on the subject: “Updated: 17 States Now Charge Fees for Electric Vehicles.
The gas tax is catching up to electric vehicles in a growing number of states. Several states have passed or enacted new fees this year, bringing the total to 17, including WestVirginia, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Oklahoma, Tennessee and California, who join; Georgia, Washington, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina and Virginia. Other states have introduced legislation that would require EV owners to pay a separate fee, including Kansas, New Hampshire and Montana. The fees are often developed as a means to pay for transportation infrastructure, which has traditionally been supplied by a gas tax.
Some state are considering a fee based on vehicle miles traveled, rather than fuel type. California raised gas tax to $0.30. It also imposed an annual $100 fee on electric vehicles starting in 2020. The deal is expected to raise $5.2 billion annually to fund roads, bridges, highways and mass transit projects.
The U.S. consumed approximately 656 gallons of fuel per driver in 2015. For drivers hitting that level of consumption, a $100 EV fee costs about half as much as a $0.30 per gallon tax. That said, a flat fee hits drivers equally, whether they drive sparingly or all the time.”
MyBottom Line From Above Numbers:
The above addresses the State tax. The federal government needs to define how it will deal with that $0.18/gallon Federal Tax! From the above info looks like a ~$400 annual tax on EVs is what is needed to cover Fed and State loss of gas tax if we are to have roads to drive on!
PS: That is what happens when the Federal Government gets involved in subsidizing things like EVs while China produces 80% of their electricity with Coal. India is 76% Coal and 4% gas. For fun just looked at the population in India and China compared to the US. Combined it's 8 times higher and many of those folks want to drive as well!
Yep, we MUST go all electric to save the World (and so Al Gore can make more money investing in carbon credit deals flying around in his private plane) while others with 8 times our population use cheap coal! That is what is ironic!
Think I'll consider getting an offroad CJ-5 (big tires, V8, headers, waterproofed ignition) as I had in the past and have fun driving on our crumbing roads and fording streams as I did years ago!
GM's goal is to abandon the internal combustion engine entirely. At some yet-unspecified point, all of its products will draw power either from batteries or hydrogen. Fuel cells are sometimes referred to as “refillable batteries.” They rely on devices called stacks to combine hydrogen and oxygen from the air to produce water vapor and electric current.
Hydrogen sounds good BUT most is produced from hydrocarbons! Getting it from water is very energy intensive and wasteful!
IMO, natural gas electric power generation and powering long hall trucks (as filling stations can be placed on major highways) is the smart next step. That and improving the energy use in gasoline powered cars using small cid turbocharged engines with a KERS type system.
This is the CO2 generation of various fuels per Btu of energy prodcued:
CO2 produced: lbs/ Btu
Coal = ~225
Diesel = ~160
Gasoline = ~160
Natural Gas = ~115
We recently toured a local power company facility where they use a number of very large natural gas powered gas turbines to generate power. Much bigger than the largest airplane jet engine but similar multistate turbines operating a generator. Where they were once used for peak shaving they are now producing power all day. They can be started and stopped quickly compared to steam powered generators or nuclear. When needing more capacity in their power grid that is there generating method of choice.
I have seen articles here and there that proclaim 2020 as the year when new battery technology that is lighter, cheaper, and all around better, will be ready for the marketplace. Since it is probably unavoidable, my hope is that manufacturers will find innovative ways to keep driving fun. Like possibly having Star Wars type lights and sounds for the various functions when driving. I am sure that imagination unchecked can find ways to keep driving a fun experience rather than a function of life.
I predict that by 2040, the generation that is growing up won't know what a gas station was used for, and just see them in old movies. Kind of like what we think of when we see telephone booths.
All automakers will be primarily focusing on electric vehicles sooner than later. One example is VW who announced that their main focus beginning in 2026 will be EV’s.
A theme I constantly see on the Corvette Forum is older men (no disrespect intended, I’m one myself!), think things will never change. Although chrome wheels may have been popular years ago, they’ve fallen out of favor, especially with today’s youth. Try to get a young buyer to opt for chrome wheels and you have a better chance at hitting the lottery. Most (not all but most) young buyers would never consider chrome wheels, and many young buyers prefer black wheels. Once all the older Corvette buyers move on to heaven, who will be left to buy chrome wheels?
And that brings me to the EV and the demise of the internal combustion gasoline engine. If automakers (or any business for that matter), are to stay in business, they need to produce goods that are desired and ultimately purchased by the public. Like chrome wheels, public tastes are changing and many young automobile buyer’s first preference is electric (my girlfriend’s kids are never impressed by my C7, yet they get all excited when they spot a Tesla). So again, if the younger generation are mostly purchasing EV’s, who will purchase gasoline vehicles after the older generation moves on to heaven?
Another theme I see here on the CF, “EV’s are not viable because their batteries don’t last on the racetrack”. Sorry, but racetrack dominance may matter to a small segment of the automobile buying public, but certainly not the majority. Ask most people what Formula1 is, or ALMS. Maybe NASCAR is known here in the states, but that doesn’t mean most people watch it or care about it. In summary, “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday” may have been a popular thing in the past, but I doubt it will stop EV’s from eventually overtaking gasoline powered vehicles.
Last edited by BIG Dave; Dec 23, 2018 at 09:26 AM.
Reason: Typo
Electric Corvettes?
Agree they may be fine for a grocery getter if you live close to town, but using 2017 statistics ~85% of the electricity generated in the US comes from burning hydrocarbon fuels. So EV folks should not feel so superior in "helping the planet!"
