Is tuning possible, yet?
Pro
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 657
Likes: 192
From: Memphis Tennessee
I have been following this along since the C8 was introduced and I hate it but I will just not ever be a C8 owner until I can modify and tune. That may mean I will never have a C8 and that is fine. There are plenty of other performance cars out there to play with. Since the C8 was still locked down, I ended up buying an AMG and have been having some fun lately.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 10,230
Likes: 885
From: Alexandria, Virginia, USA VA
the new ecm won't be hacked, and the integration with the car isn't trivial. Piggy back tuning seems to be a dance that will happen for a long time
but why does everyone choose a motec when there are so many cheaper platforms out there? I thing a MS3 pro with a couple of widebands could control the additional injectors and do a fine job
And you still need to beef the clutch pack and tranny to plant that power. For the price of the c8 mods I said hell with it and bought a c5 done turnkey (22k)
Love the car but GM is missing the boat locking it down. Have folks sign away the warranty and unlock it! If they blow it up, you sell them an engine, what's not to like!!
Not being able to mod it without blowing big bucks is an unfortunate by product of technology and lawyers.
but why does everyone choose a motec when there are so many cheaper platforms out there? I thing a MS3 pro with a couple of widebands could control the additional injectors and do a fine job
And you still need to beef the clutch pack and tranny to plant that power. For the price of the c8 mods I said hell with it and bought a c5 done turnkey (22k)
Love the car but GM is missing the boat locking it down. Have folks sign away the warranty and unlock it! If they blow it up, you sell them an engine, what's not to like!!
Not being able to mod it without blowing big bucks is an unfortunate by product of technology and lawyers.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 657
Likes: 192
From: Memphis Tennessee
Cheaper doesn't always mean better. We aren't talking about TSP headers vs American Racing where the difference isn't really a whole lot for the price. Motec has been around for a long time doing stuff for very high HP cars and has been tried and true tested many times to be a great application. Sure it's a bit pricey but you get what you pay for.
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,084
Likes: 3,055
From: CA
All software has bugs. Hackers exploit those bugs to gain access. The question is, are there enough resources being put to use to find those software flaws. Unless there is a huge amount of money to be made, then there may not be enough resources.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 657
Likes: 192
From: Memphis Tennessee
Even with time and resources it still may not be possible. The c7 ZR1 ECU hasn't even been cracked yet and that's several years out. And with OTA updates there's no way to say whether or not that even the c8 gets cracked that it won't get written back to stock, or worse, completely disable the car.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 13,180
Likes: 10,521
Even with time and resources it still may not be possible. The c7 ZR1 ECU hasn't even been cracked yet and that's several years out. And with OTA updates there's no way to say whether or not that even the c8 gets cracked that it won't get written back to stock, or worse, completely disable the car.
Here's an explanation by someone who knows what they're talking about:
As discussed by others for the last year and highly doubtful will be cracked for some time
GM's new E99 ECM in the 2020 C8 Corvettes involves multi-factor authentication involving dealer employees & credentials and a Diffie-Hellman 2048-bit key exchange using a SHA-256 hash digest that is unique for each VIN PCM & TCM.
The Diffie-Hellman 2048/SHA-256 ECM/TCM is not a STATIC security implementation, it is currently un-crackable by even the best in the aftermarket tuning world.
Current estimates to crack Diffie-Hellman 1024 is 35,000,000 core years.
It would take 35 million CPU cores 1 year to crack a single key exchange, and the key exchange is unique for each VIN. Diffie-Hellman 2048
Forget about it, not going to happen.
Now then, a stand-alone aftermarket PCM that could partially by pass the rolling code encryptions momentarily will cut off factory instrument cluster, HVAC, audio, BCM, power windows and eventually will obtain authentication error which will alert On-Star Remote to shutdown the car.
None of it will work because it has security dependencies on the factory ECM. Every module that communicates with the PCM/TCM uses 2048-bit Diffie-Hellman key exchange with a SHA-256.
Successfully flash-tuning, reprogramming & otherwise altering the engine control unit to increase power output on the 2020 C8 will be next to impossible.
The anti-hacking encryption written into the electronic control module will block any attempt to "read, write, and/or replace the standard ECU of the C8.
If the ECU detects such an effort, and that programming event fails, the Corvette C8 will enter a "recovery mode" that requires a reboot.
The C8 can be reprogrammed but that is only with GM software, and only by an entity with the proper encryption keys - meaning a trip on a flatbed to the dealer and a sure fire way to completely void your entire warranty.
GM's new E99 ECM in the 2020 C8 Corvettes involves multi-factor authentication involving dealer employees & credentials and a Diffie-Hellman 2048-bit key exchange using a SHA-256 hash digest that is unique for each VIN PCM & TCM.
The Diffie-Hellman 2048/SHA-256 ECM/TCM is not a STATIC security implementation, it is currently un-crackable by even the best in the aftermarket tuning world.
Current estimates to crack Diffie-Hellman 1024 is 35,000,000 core years.
It would take 35 million CPU cores 1 year to crack a single key exchange, and the key exchange is unique for each VIN. Diffie-Hellman 2048
Forget about it, not going to happen.
Now then, a stand-alone aftermarket PCM that could partially by pass the rolling code encryptions momentarily will cut off factory instrument cluster, HVAC, audio, BCM, power windows and eventually will obtain authentication error which will alert On-Star Remote to shutdown the car.
None of it will work because it has security dependencies on the factory ECM. Every module that communicates with the PCM/TCM uses 2048-bit Diffie-Hellman key exchange with a SHA-256.
Successfully flash-tuning, reprogramming & otherwise altering the engine control unit to increase power output on the 2020 C8 will be next to impossible.
The anti-hacking encryption written into the electronic control module will block any attempt to "read, write, and/or replace the standard ECU of the C8.
If the ECU detects such an effort, and that programming event fails, the Corvette C8 will enter a "recovery mode" that requires a reboot.
The C8 can be reprogrammed but that is only with GM software, and only by an entity with the proper encryption keys - meaning a trip on a flatbed to the dealer and a sure fire way to completely void your entire warranty.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,348
Likes: 733
From: Oceanside Ca
Many of you are looking at the glass half empty that you can't program the ECU. I am thankful they haven't programmed cars to not exceed given speed limits of the road being driven or the ability for law enforcement to override your car, let's say disable the throttle when they pull you over.
Planned or not planned, one thing every government learned during the pandemic is how easily people can be controlled.
Check out how the Chinese government is controlling their citizens.
Planned or not planned, one thing every government learned during the pandemic is how easily people can be controlled.
Check out how the Chinese government is controlling their citizens.
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Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,084
Likes: 3,055
From: CA
Even with time and resources it still may not be possible. The c7 ZR1 ECU hasn't even been cracked yet and that's several years out. And with OTA updates there's no way to say whether or not that even the c8 gets cracked that it won't get written back to stock, or worse, completely disable the car.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,266
Likes: 8,402
Good thing the government doesn't do that here. Instead, we have the safety and security of private, for profit entities, like experian, transunion, equifax, facebook, and so on that keep track of us, and limit or allow access to credit ......My wife can google something on her tablet and I will get ads for it on my news feed on my laptop. I have mid day appointments two days a week, and I will get reminders/alerts on my iPhone when to leave, even though I have never entered those appointments on my calender. Something is just watching where and when I go places, and noticing the pattern.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 864
I have been following this along since the C8 was introduced and I hate it but I will just not ever be a C8 owner until I can modify and tune. That may mean I will never have a C8 and that is fine. There are plenty of other performance cars out there to play with. Since the C8 was still locked down, I ended up buying an AMG and have been having some fun lately.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 12,711
Likes: 10,140
From: Garden Valley CA
Good thing the government doesn't do that here. Instead, we have the safety and security of private, for profit entities, like experian, transunion, equifax, facebook, and so on that keep track of us, and limit or allow access to credit ......My wife can google something on her tablet and I will get ads for it on my news feed on my laptop. I have mid day appointments two days a week, and I will get reminders/alerts on my iPhone when to leave, even though I have never entered those appointments on my calender. Something is just watching where and when I go places, and noticing the pattern.
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,084
Likes: 3,055
From: CA
Good thing the government doesn't do that here. Instead, we have the safety and security of private, for profit entities, like experian, transunion, equifax, facebook, and so on that keep track of us, and limit or allow access to credit ......My wife can google something on her tablet and I will get ads for it on my news feed on my laptop. I have mid day appointments two days a week, and I will get reminders/alerts on my iPhone when to leave, even though I have never entered those appointments on my calender. Something is just watching where and when I go places, and noticing the pattern.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,266
Likes: 8,402
Actually, I was using the term Google generically. I hate google because of their marketing tactics and invasive approach to things. Not saying that what I do use is necessarily better - but I use a Foxfire browser, and the Bing search engine on my lap top. I'm not sure what my wife uses on her iPad. I try to disable cookies and cross tracking as much as possible.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 657
Likes: 192
From: Memphis Tennessee
The hacks you are referring to are ransomware hacks that are, in almost all cases, caused by end users opening things they aren't supposed to be such as emails, web links, etc that ultimately grant hackers access to their computer and as such the rest of the network in the company. Hacking an ECU that doesn't have a dumb person on the end of it allowing things that aren't supposed to by mistake isn't the case here. What's happened to companies recently is a good example of "having the ability to lock your door at night, but not locking it" vs cracking an ECU that always has a locked door, and cannot be unlocked by mistake by someone on the other side. To unlock that door requires forceful entry like trying to drill into a safe at Fort Knox.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,079
Likes: 2,413
From: Florida
What he said. The c8 oem platform is simply not going to be suffice for the guy who wants some descent power. So mods are a must. And it isn’t cost effective at all in this car including the drivetrain. I was blown away on how quickly I pull away on my buddies c8 with my used 1800$ procharger I installed on my c7. He’s selling it for something he can mod.
Last edited by bhvrdr; Apr 21, 2022 at 06:37 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 159
Likes: 92
Check out gmauthority recent article, Trifecta performance has been able to crack the ecu on a ct4-v blackwing. Requires to be sent in for a one time modification and boom you have tuning. Similar to what HPtuners is doing with the ZR1. Same ecu as the C8. Now they just need to crack the TCU.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,709
Likes: 7,100
From: Fulshear, TX
Check out gmauthority recent article, Trifecta performance has been able to crack the ecu on a ct4-v blackwing. Requires to be sent in for a one time modification and boom you have tuning. Similar to what HPtuners is doing with the ZR1. Same ecu as the C8. Now they just need to crack the TCU.
