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Why the hostility over me trying to help someone understand data? So bizarre people get "he's one of those guys" because I show you what trap speeds are versus e.t. that were all gained in the first 60 feet.
Yes let's say if you run a 1.5x 60 foot and an 11.2 at 122mph versus a car that runs a 1.8 60 foot and 11.5 at 124mph that car is making more power.
Is anyone honestly disputing that???
Yes and Bradenton is not South Florida lol as I've heard it referred to as.
I'll be up there at some point. No worries. I get around Florida. This is really not a competition lol. No idea why you are making it that.
Never said anything about anyone's car or their mods. Literally just interpreting data. For all I know your car heat soaked longer on the day with the halltech and had a 15 degree higher starting IAT. If folks understood that could have caused the power difference then maybe youd be less defensive lol.
......
As for my car, you can very easily see what throttle body I have on my car. They're not hidden. You can also see if the ptr is on there. You can also see the stock or modified exhaust.
I have literally just put on an AFE intake for testing this month. I put it on with all else stock so I am testing one part.
Just got done with same day stock intake versus afe intake controlled condition logging controlling for
1. starting iat.
2. Wind direction and speed
3. Tire pressure.
4. Ambient conditions
5. Direction of travel / slope
6. Fuel quality
7. Weight in car.
I did collection of
rpm
air intake volume
Timing
Knk
Stft
Iat
ECT
These are the logging variables i do when testing intakes, throttle bodies or manifolds.
I may very well remove it. Do I want to sacrifice filtering versus 3hp? I'm not sure yet. I did before hand oil testing for silicates and will do an after test too.
I have now put on a Borla S catback literally yesterday.
I'll do some testing on that but I am not expecting more than 5hp. Whatever.
Do I think my car is now going to go 125mph in perfect air with a catback and afe intake? Probably not. Maybe though. That would be 10hp or so. No idea until I check.
The car will go an additional 1.5mph with e30 though. I haven't performance acceleration tested it yet but logged it and see an additional 3 degrees of timing.
Well probably because you keep changing my data point of 5,000rpm to 4,500 rpm and fail to address the upshift rpm's on the graph I posted. Your failure to admit that a mod that increases hp along the hp curve except at peak hp will improve performance. Your logic is.flawed. Instead of addressing what I actually posted you want to change or disregard them.
You can also buy and oem intake manifold and TB and have them ported, there is no way to tell without removing them from the engine and inspecting the internals and measuring them.
Last edited by NonZ51Mark; Jul 29, 2023 at 10:08 PM.
My Hellcat Redeye trapped 125 on stock tires and went 11.30 with a 1.80 60ft at the track. Slapped on some beadlock wheels and DRs, it dropped to 10.40 at 132.65 with a 1.48 60 ft. So this tells me there is power to be had down low which increased power up top as well.
Well probably because you keep changing my data point of 5,000rpm to 4,500 rpm and fail to address the upshift rpm's on the graph I posted. Your failure to admit that a mod that increases hp along the hp curve except at peak hp will improve performance. Your logic is.flawed. Instead of addressing what I actually posted you want to change or disregard them.
You can also buy and oem intake manifold and TB and have them ported, there is no way to tell without removing them from the engine and inspecting the internals and measuring them.
And someone would do these 5hp mods to hide them why lol??? It's not like hiding a nitrous bottle. I'm pretty open with my testing on them to hide them lol.
And no I did not change your data. You said....
Originally Posted by NonZ51Mark
One thing that you may not be considering is that most of the power gains from these mods may be in the lower and midrange rpm 2,000-5,000 and will mostly show on an 1/8 mile run and not as much in the 1/8 to 1/4 times.
I simply responded that I have no idea why you'd bring up low to mid range.
You brought up 2000rpm to max of 5000rpm.
Out of that 3000rpm rev band you brought up our cars are only in a few hundred rpm of it under wot.
Plus these intakes are literally advertised as making power up top.
Here's halltechs latest claim....
Mid to top end pick-ups right?
Why were you thinking an intake is giving you low end anyways when the car doesn't need as much air?
Originally Posted by NonZ51Mark
Look at the graph, 0-27mph are at and under 5,000rpm.
You're launching at 3500rpm? You're counting 0-3500rpm of that graph. Don't do that
Again just trying to help you be accurate.
The OP had a .4 second better 60 foot on his baseline run. It was a better launch. Then he lost a tiny bit of power in the second half. Simple as that. I didn't say why or blame the intake. I stated the facts. Don't get mad at the facts.
You are at 20 mph immediately upon a 3500rpm launch…..
.
You may know things about drag racing but you know little about physics.
The statement above is physically impossible. Let’s be generous and say immediately is 0.1 seconds. You would need an average acceleration rate of over 9 Gs to achieve that. Completely not happening. Actual 0-20 mph takes about 1 second.
Acceleration is a function of the average horsepower under curve of the difference needed to travel a given speed and the amount of power delivered to the ground at those speeds across the range of speeds included in the acceleration run. You keep talking about peak HP, it is not that it is average HP under the curve. Mph a function of average acceleration over the distance, end of story. It is just math.
The same car will produce a range MPHs in the quarter across several runs under similar DA. By your statements that is not possible, but it happens.
And someone would do these 5hp mods to hide them why lol??? It's not like hiding a nitrous bottle. I'm pretty open with my testing on them to hide them lol.
And no I did not change your data. You said....
I simply responded that I have no idea why you'd bring up low to mid range.
You brought up 2000rpm to max of 5000rpm.
Out of that 3000rpm rev band you brought up our cars are only in a few hundred rpm of it under wot.
Plus these intakes are literally advertised as making power up top.
Here's halltechs latest claim....
Mid to top end pick-ups right?
Why were you thinking an intake is giving you low end anyways when the car doesn't need as much air?
You're launching at 3500rpm? You're counting 0-3500rpm of that graph. Don't do that
Again just trying to help you be accurate.
The OP had a .4 second better 60 foot on his baseline run. It was a better launch. Then he lost a tiny bit of power in the second half. Simple as that. I didn't say why or blame the intake. I stated the facts. Don't get mad at the facts.
I've tried to explain it to you numerous times in different ways but you're not interested in hearing it. Good luck
You may know things about drag racing but you know little about physics.
The statement above is physically impossible. Let’s be generous and say immediately is 0.1 seconds. You would need an average acceleration rate of over 9 Gs to achieve that. Completely not happening. Actual 0-20 mph takes about 1 second.
Acceleration is a function of the average horsepower under curve of the difference needed to travel a given speed and the amount of power delivered to the ground at those speeds across the range of speeds included in the acceleration run. You keep talking about peak HP, it is not that it is average HP under the curve. Mph a function of average acceleration over the distance, end of story. It is just math.
The same car will produce a range MPHs in the quarter across several runs under similar DA. By your statements that is not possible, but it happens.
Yes obviously nothing is instant. My apologies if I said instant.
The whole point I guess I was not making well is this is not low rev band. He's counting the first 20mph as happening in the low rev band. They're not. Because you're engine is not there.
you are launching at 3500rpm. Again you are not using the low powerband.
Your car is not starting at 0rpm like the graph.
The wheels may be starting at 0mph but the engine is not starting at 0rpm.
And yes I agree acceleration is hp.
But a 400hp car with 200tq is significantly faster than a 400tq car with 200hp
and yes hp under the curve you are driving. Again, at wot you should not be at 2000rpm. Not 3000rpm.
Plus the halltech advertises the gains up top. It's an intake
Yes obviously nothing is instant. My apologies if I said instant.
The whole point here is this is not low rev band. He's counting the first 20mph as happening in the low rev band. They're not. Because you're engine is not there. Period.
First, you get 12 inches of rollout acceleration that is not counted in your acceleration.
Then you are launching at 3500rpm. Again you are not using the low powerband.
Your car is not starting at 0rpm like the graph.
The wheels may be starting at 0mph but the engine is not starting at 0rpm.
Acceleration is hp yes.
A 400hp car with 200tq is significantly faster than a 400tq car with 200hp
and hp under the curve you are driving. Again, at wot you should not be at 2000rpm. Not 3000rpm.
Lol, 5,000 rpm and less is what I have been saying the whole time. YOU CAN MAKE HORSE POWER GAINS UNDER 5,000 RPM AND YOU CAR WILL BE FASTER. IT'S A FACT!!
Lol, 5,000 rpm and less is what I have been saying the whole time. YOU CAN MAKE HORSE POWER GAINS UNDER 5,000 RPM AND YOU CAR WILL BE FASTER. IT'S A FACT!!
You said 2000rpm to 5000rpm. You said low to mid rev band.
See ..
Originally Posted by NonZ51Mark
...most of the power gains from these mods may be in the lower and midrange rpm 2,000-5,000 ...
I was just pointing out we are not in the low range.
Nor does halltech...the intake we're talking about.... claim to make power there compared to top end.
I still think it's possible... you know...the launch may have impacted the e.t....since the 60 foot was .4 seconds faster in that 60 feet. What do you think? Could that be possible?
I agree with you multiple times that there are other variables that can impact the statistically insignificant results as well including just starting at a 15 degree higher iat on the halltech runs.
Ok guys. So your points in assessing a power difference apparently are.
Focus on e.t., even if it came from the first 60 feet (it did)
Dont do controlled condition testing on airflow.
Expect an intake to give you low end gains (that's not how an engine works).
Ignore trap speed.
Ignore back half to front half delta.
Got it. Thank you for helping the original poster understand his baseline and modified run.
What I've tried to explain to you is that there are exceptions to your method of evaluating a mod. Evaluating a mods value by looking back half to front half delta (your words and merhod) does not always tell the whole story. I have then tried to give you examples of how and why that can be true. Some parts can give you more power in a lower rpm range and will mostly show improvements in your 1/8 times. I'm not saying your method doesn't work, I'm saying there are exceptions to it.
How would you explain 2 C8's that have the same reaction time, 60ft time and same trap speed but one ran 11.20 and the other ran 11.00? Could it be possible that one accelerated faster from 50 to 80 and how would that be possible? Is it possible for a mod to give a flatter hp curve with the same peak hp or maybe even lower peak to run a better et? I like how you evaluate parts with all the variables you look at, there unfortunately are more variables that you are not looking at and a lot of us are trying to have better et's at the track. When your racing et's are the number 1 factor to consider.
Originally Posted by NonZ51Mark;1606889049
.... Evaluating a mods value by looking back half to front half delta (your words and merhod) does not always tell the whole story.
.... [b
Some parts can give you more power in a lower rpm range [/b]and will mostly show improvements in your 1/8 times. I'm not saying your method doesn't work, I'm saying there are exceptions to it.
I agree that should not be the only method. Not sure why'd you focus on that. I didn't only list that as "my method.". Not once did I say that.
I listed the following:
DA
1/8 trap
1/4 trap
Front half to back half delta
That's the data we had to work with.
I also stated 40-100mph
60-130mph
And logging in same DA with recording of slope and wind direction and speed (this can easily be obtained) the following
Rpm
Iat
Air intake volume
ECT
Stft
Ambient temp sensor
This will tell you what you want to know.
I have no idea what out of that triggered people.
The OP literally had a .4 second better launch on his modified run. That was the e.t. difference. The launch.
You keep saying "low rpm range"
You just said it above. You are not driving in the low rpm range in the 1/8. Are you starting with the engine off at 0rpm at the lights or are you starting launching as high as you can?
You're launching first gear at 3500rpm and hooking by maybe 4500rpm if lucky.
Are you then shifting into 2nd gear with that gear starting at around 4700rpm to 6500rpm?
Then you are startingthird gear at around 4700rpm to 6500rpm again yes?
Then 4th gear also starts at approximately 4700rpm to redline where you are already passed the 8th now.
Now this beginning to sound like a broken record..
Probably the best thing to do is open up your own topic regarding (Using the Draggy for Racing and Recording Data on the Highways) instead of the track. That video wasn't recorded on track for comparison. The guy or whomever did 124mph on the highway in very good air I suppose. And it is obviously that you are racing with the draggy and comparing that to the drag strip. Take the draggy to the drag strip.....period.
I agree that should not be the only method. Not sure why'd you focus on that. I didn't only list that as "my method.". Not once did I say that.
I listed the following:
DA
1/8 trap
1/4 trap
Front half to back half delta
That's the data we had to work with.
I also stated 40-100mph
60-130mph
And logging in same DA with recording of slope and wind direction and speed (this can easily be obtained) the following
Rpm
Iat
Air intake volume
ECT
Stft
Ambient temp sensor
This will tell you what you want to know.
I have no idea what out of that triggered people.
The OP literally had a .4 second better launch on his modified run. That was the e.t. difference. The launch.
You keep saying "low rpm range"
You just said it above. You are not driving in the low rpm range in the 1/8. Are you starting with the engine off at 0rpm at the lights or are you starting launching as high as you can?
You're launching first gear at 3500rpm and hooking by maybe 4500rpm if lucky.
Are you then shifting into 2nd gear with that gear starting at around 4700rpm to 6500rpm?
Then you are startingthird gear at around 4700rpm to 6500rpm again yes?
Then 4th gear also starts at approximately 4700rpm to redline where you are already passed the 8th now.
You are not in the low end.
No I did not say low rpm range, I said a lower rpm range, a huge difference and I said 2,000 to 5,000 rpm (3,500-5,000 being the more critical range) and it was just an example of a LOWER RPM RANGE!
When you shift into second gear with a Z51 at 35mph and drop to 4,000 rpm not 4,700.
Into 3rd at 58mph and 4,500 not 4,700
Your rpm drop is below the peak horse power rpm. If you have more power at that rpm drop you car will accelerate faster!!
Quit cherry picking words with your own definitions to try and prove me wrong. MAKING MORE POWER AT A LOWER (NOT LOW) RPM'S CAN REDUCE YOUR ET'S. If you don't understand that your clueless.
1. 2,000-5000rpm makes 400 hp and 5000-6500 makes 450hp.
2. 2,000-5000rpm makes 350hp and 5000-6500 makes 450hp.
Answer me this: which example 1 or 2 should have a better et and why? I bet you won't answer that question without making referencing to me saying low rpm or 4,500rpm which I have never said.
Some people believe that draggy is more accurate and the way to go as far as performance. Draggy can't make your car go any faster. No doubt useful when you do bolt-ons.
No I did not say low rpm range, I said a lower rpm range, a huge difference and I said 2,000 to 5,000 rpm (3,500-5,000 being the more critical range) and it was just an example of a LOWER RPM RANGE!
When you shift into second gear with a Z51 at 35mph and drop to 4,000 rpm not 4,700.
Into 3rd at 58mph and 4,500 not 4,700
Your rpm drop is below the peak horse power rpm. If you have more power at that rpm drop you car will accelerate faster!!
Quit cherry picking words with your own definitions to try and prove me wrong. MAKING MORE POWER AT A LOWER (NOT LOW) RPM'S CAN REDUCE YOUR ET'S. If you don't understand that your clueless.
1. 2,000-5000rpm makes 400 hp and 5000-6500 makes 450hp.
2. 2,000-5000rpm makes 350hp and 5000-6500 makes 450hp.
Answer me this: which example 1 or 2 should have a better et and why? I bet you won't answer that question without making referencing to me saying low rpm or 4,500rpm which I have never said.
No doubt we are in agreement that power you gain from around 4500rpm to redline is important
If you choose to call it "lower rev range" and I choose to call it "upper rev range" we can call that semantics if that's your pleasure.
Wishful thinking. One of them is definitely still around as he was just filling up my recent thread with a bunch of garbage until I told him to shut up
