futuretech

The slower cars in our sportsman bracket (16 sec) always stage deep. I can't see the benefit because they red light more that everybody else. Many of these guys are good drivers too.

So what's the the benefit?

REDGAR

Here is a good article on reaction times which discusses deep staging
http://www.staginglight.com/guide/react.html

kazman

If you shallow stage and actually "wait" for the 3rd amber even in an 11.50 car your reaction time is going to be .1xx or higher. If your getting "better" RT's than that (shallow) you are anticipating the tree (actually going before the 3rd amber comes on). Learning to wait for the light and reacting to it is more consistant that getting into a rhythm and anticipating. Also deep removes the 8" or so of rollout behind the starting line. Less track to manange and will help stabalize 60' times.

killerREDvette

deep stage
-lower RT-because of the lack of roll out
-adds time to ET
-cuts some mph-because the track is shorter


reg stage
-tends to add to RT
-lowers ET
-faster mph

but it is more a thing of preference....and im pretty sure the RT that u take out is whats added to your ET...so if u shallow stage and have a car running 10.35 and your RT is .150....if u deep stage you'd probably run 10.45-10.50's but your RT be like .00x's....could write a novel about this but tried to clif note it(these are number off top of head just to give u an idea dont quote me on them)

jpee

I may be thinking this all wrong... "BUT" if a track makes a rule NO DEEP STAGING.. wont it be the same disadvantage for all..

Using me as an example.. last time I raced on a Pro Tree with my car I had .021, and .040 lights in qualifying, then in 2nd round I went -008 RED I was DEEP STAGING..

If the track made a rule No Deep Staging.. my light would slow down to (a guess) .121, .141 (I'm adding about .100 to my original RTs. where I went RED it would have been .092 GREEN

YES my RT would suffer but wouldn't it also be the same for all the other racers? They would all be in the same boat as me, and have to travel the extra 8-10" by not DEEP STAGING!

kazman

JP, I agree with your math. Yes it would put everyone on the same disadvantage. The advantage would then to the racer with the most $$$$$$ who could make their car react faster.

REDGAR

Not exactly jpee. Just because there is a rule of "no deep staging" you still have the same 8"-10" to work with.

by the way did you stay till the end yesterday?

kazman

Is that your way of saying shallow and a BIG BUMP in?

jpee

It was a cluster ***K, Fri it rained until 5pm and we said let go and get the Buffet Prime Rib ($22) @ The Inn At Chester Springs) of course AFTER we left they "NHRA" did have 1 round of qualifing...

We go Sat morning... Jeanne went red 1st round Her dad ran 10.817 on 10.82 broke out by .003


We got to see the 2nd qualifying round at 5pm... then it was called off (more rain) Went back and had ANOTHER PRIME RIB BUFFET

BTW Sat it was a sprinkle every now and then nothing bad, just enough to delay racing for 20 min at a time!

Sunday weather looked GREAT..... they NHRA announced they were going to cut the ceremonies etc, & run as quick as they could...

The SUN was out everyone was happy... Not so fast race breath They (NHRA ran 1 round of SS then round 1 of Top fuel, & Round 1 of FC ... (Ashley F DQ underweight) The PS cars come to the line about 3 pairs run, & racing is stopped...

NHRA said due to theSUN on the track it was causing water to seep up through the cracks at about the finish line...1 hr later NHRA sends the rest of the PS cars & PSM back to the pits and estimate a 2 hr wait.. (BTW its now 2pm) I have a almost 4 hr drive if NO traffic,,,,

I bailed out and got home 6pm.they resumed racing at 5pm .... So I only saw 1 qualifying round and 1/2 the pro cars run in eliminations in 1st round...

Turned it on TV at 10 pm only to see little league (until 10:30) I fell asleep, but woke up to see the last two rounds...

The show will be on ESPN CLASSIC at 2pm today !! About the only good thing I can say is I had 2 great Prime Rib dinners (all I could Eat) for $22 at our Motel!

REDGAR

wow....that is a shame. I flew into CO last night and caught the last hour and half of the show. WJ was pissed at NHRA for making tracks spend money new sand traps instead of track maintenance. he was very mad and spewing stuff out like crazy.

jpee

I herd about that but that was one of my "medication" moments.. hopefully I'll see it this afternoon on ESPN Classic..

PS (Off Topic) any idea when we will have the make up from the 22nd)

PDQUIK95

Ditto Edgar,
All "No deep staging" means to me on a pro tree is no extra time will be given to stage deeper and you better be ready and quick to bump in deeper one time right after the second stage light comes on unless you are first to double stage.The only problem I have seen with both trying to deep stage on a pro tree without the rule is that both cars tend to try and rush in first to prestage and double stage before the other guy even gets prestaged giving him extra time to deep stage.This seems to throw curtesy staging out the window so you need to be ready on the extra bump in if you are last to stage. Just takes some practice but I see that as all part of the game in racing.
Rick

kazman

What your refering to is "Deep Allowed but Not Honored".

"No Deep Staging" means if you turn off the prestage light you will be DQ'ed and loose.

"Deep Allowed and Honored" is when the starter turns autostart off and holds the tree for deep stagers.

REDGAR

Unfortunately the definition of "No Deep Staging" is very unclear and will vary from track to track and even class to class which is why some rules now say Deep Staging Allowed and Honored.

Deep Staging not allowed could mean
a. if you go deep you will get a deep foul light and lose just as if you went red
b. it could mean we will not hold the tree for you but if you go deep you gotta get there on your own, we will not hold the tree...Deep Stage Allowed but not honored

Choice a. is very clear and few tracks use it because a guy will bump in to get the best light and could go deep by mistake and you dq him, he ain't coming back.

Choice b. is what causes what Rick described which is if they will not wait for me, I am going deep fast as I can.

Those that are learning to deep stage, it should not mean you throw out courtesy staging. You should do that regardless of what the rule of deep staging is in your class.

You need to learn to deep stage or go just short of deep staging from the prestage light.

Here is a lesson for those who want to go three bulbs without courtesy staging...you are asking for trouble. You will hurt yourself more. Why?

1. You triple bulb, the other driver is not on the clock at all, and he can sit there and let you think about whether you want to be on the converter or off then on then off...get it?

2. Also, other driver can light pre stage bulbs and still have seven or whatever the time is set, second to decide when he wants to stage

3. you still don’t know when the starter is going to release the hold button


Also something I have learned recently, starter does NOT turn off autostart it only seems that way. He only manually overrides the staged to start...same timers still apply. Look at your time slips...it still says “auto start on and starter override” or something like that provided you are in a class with autostart on...which is a whole other topic.

Bottomline, deep stagers are the least loved racer there is….talk to your opponent and discuss how you want to do it….I have had racers ask me to do it differently and I have.

Dave-T

I raced in Pro ET and Street ET yesterday at E-Town. I got triple bulbed by both drivers. I figured points drivers on Sunday would courtesy stage but I guess not.

kazman

Courtesy staging is not existant in those classes. Same at Maple Grove. You do learn how to deal with it.

Fuzzy Dice

Deep staging on a sportsman tree is more often than not a result of the vehicle the racer is driving... a lot of slow cars deep stage because the cars reaction time is so slow ...remember there are two reaction times..the car and the driver...I raced a 93 vette for a long time and it was a complete turd off the line...I had to deep stage that car and go up on the converter just to cut an .040 light...

As for the courtesy staging stuff, I have yet to see a starter back out a double bulber...on two occasions when I raced the vette I made the starter back out my double bulbing opponent....believe it or not the starter got pizzed at me....I guess he was mad at me for making him do his job...

Now I race a car which goes .020 shallow staging and leaving on the third amber...big tire slicks out back make a huge difference...

futuretech

Now that makes some sense. Slower cars need some help to cut a light. Thanks!

killerREDvette

the one problem with a no deep staging rule is that a trans-break fixes the whole RT thing...but trans breaks bring in there own problems. also on a sportsman tree it doesn't matter as much because u get the three bulbs one at a time so u can go when 3rd light turns on...or adjust for your car for you car to finish the roll out with a great RT. on a pro tree its a whole different story because if your car cant cut a good light with the .500 u get to react, well there is really no way to adjust it other than staging deeper in the lights, or try and anticipate it but the computer changes the time from stage to go on a pro tree by .2 i think so thats kinda a shot in the dark, or install a trans-break(but there kinda like dumping a "clutch" on an automatic at 6000rpm's)

again its all a preference in 11 years i have seen every combination of staging talked about here. what ever you feel comfortable with tends to be the "right" one for you

kazman

Slower RTing cars need some help to cut a light. My 12.0 firebirds need to be deep staged. I know of a few 11.5 vetts here that have the same issues. ET and 60' times are not real indicators of the car's RT. A 16 second car may roll out of the beam just as fast or slow as a 12 second car. A cars RT is the time it take to move forward the first few inches. Pulling a big wheelie is moving up not forward. It also takes time to put the wrinkles in the rear tires.

Besides the RT thing, deep staging give other benifits when bracket racing.

Deep stagers learn to react to a Sportsman tree. Their RT's are the same on either a Pro .500 or Sportsman .500 tree.