Glensgages

Deep-stagers don't necessarily go-Red more often than 2-bulb racers if they are consistent, and know what they are doing:
inconsistent racers are consistently late, then early, then on-time.



deep-staging is no-different than a batter, standing a few inches deeper in the batter's-box against a fastball pitcher:
it is a legal, strategic maneuver employed to provide a racer with what he feels is an advantage for his particular vehicle



I have done very-limited racing here in Florida (Bradenton, Orlando, & Sunshine) with no-problem deep-staging:
from what I understand, only Division One (particularly the 2 largest tracks) have a serious problem with deep-staging, and try to have the practice outlawed on a yearly basis at the D1 Track Operators Meeting

Harry7239

This thread's definitely an interesting read .

I do most of my bracket racing with a car that's been averaging 16.20's with 60' times hanging around 2.34ish. I've gone deep during some time shots to see if there's anything in it for me, but I was never able to find the right rhythm for my car to leave that late. I'm not an experienced bracket racer by any means compared to most here, but I always try to be ready for the tree to drop as quickly as possible, and I felt that shallow staging was the best option for me to stay as consistent as I can. Once I put tires on the car that could actually put the power down off the line, I no longer had to anticipate the 3rd amber as much. At this point, I'm actually reacting to the 3rd amber light (although, pretty quickly).

Kaz, those are some interesting thoughts... I've always wondered about faster cars that deep stage. There's a gentleman who deep stages with a 14-15 second car that runs both Saturdays and Sundays, which always surprised me since it probably averages 1.2 seconds faster than my car. I suppose the different combinations can cause surprising results for the first 8-10" of the track. I race this guy a lot, and I always tell him before hand that I'm gonna put my top bulb on while or after he puts the bottom bulb on... so that when he's bumping in deep, I'm using my 7-10 seconds (I forget what Real St/St ET are) to bump into shallow.

I truly don't care if someone double bulbs me, even though I have the head start 90% of the time. I know a lot of guys get pissed when they're double bulbed and keep the guy waiting to burn him down or whatever, but the only time I'll keep a double-bulber waiting is if the dial-ins are not yet on the scoreboard and I'm waiting on them to make sure they're correct. Then again, I'm not leaving at a very high RPM, so I can understand how life gets a lot more difficult for some cars who get double bulbed.

REDGAR

Great diagrams. It is easy to see how much movement you have before you go deep and even how much you have after you go deep which you did not diagram but we can visually the rear of the tire sitting stage light.

HUGE difference. A driver taking advantage of all that can slow a car easy .2 as well as increase rt up to the same .2

Placement of the car is key.

Glensgages

In my particular instance (low 13-second Z28), I made 4 alternating runs (deep, both-lit, deep, both-lit) on a single test-session, under atmospheric conditions that didn't vary 100' in DA:
the car ran 13.30, 13.11, 13.31, 13.13 (all at 103/104 MPH), for a difference in ET of approx .18 to .20, but my RT differed just .07 to .09, from .110 & .120 leaving 'regular', to .03 and .05 going-deep (and I was pretty-sharp back then).

About 4-6 years ago, a racer at bracket-talk / DDR ran a computer simulation, using a 'typical' 10-second door-slammer, and his results showed that a car leaving with both-bulbs lit would be traveling almost 5 MPH when his tires cleared the Stage Beam & started the ET clocks, but the same car when deep-staged would be moving slightly-over 1 MPH.

REDGAR

I have been running pro tree classes some time now..over 4 years. Many times I have gone shallow for ET to qualify then gone deep for RT raning in classes from 11.50 to 10.0. I have found on my car it is always .15 - .2 ET diff and RT very close to the same.

Only thing I did not do during those non-scentific runs is my mental state is focus on what I am trying to accomplish so when I am chasing ET I disregard RT...for the most part.

so for those may years, i have wondered and yet answered if the expected gain in RT is the same as the expected loss in ET or if I am hurting one end or the other. I guess in my mind I have convinced myself it is the same so i have one less thing to worry about on race day

futuretech

I started this thread back in August and just re-read it today. Two months ago I never thought I would ever consider "deep" staging. After struggling with .1~ reaction times (leaving on third light) I understand much better.

I always believed I could "will" down my RT by being sharper. I realize all I was doing was anticpating the third light...a risky business.

Thanks for the education guys.

futuretech

I re-read this post three years after I started it. 500 passes, a few wins, and a blown motor later and I am ready for the new year.
It was great to read it again since I am deep staging. My stock tire size only allows me to run .17x if I wait for the third bulb. Deep gets me in to the .04x.

futuretech

Deep staging really works for me. I needed to get past the "image" of a deep stager (slooow car) and learn the proper staging technique. I recommend deep staging to all C5 owners as a way to launch at a lower rpm (<2k) and achieve reliable accurate launches.

As an added point, dial hard. Dial the number you think you will run, not under. You can compensate on the other end. This sport becomes a lot more fun when you are winning and actually in control of the outcome.

Thanks for all the previous advice from the pros here. I wished I would have embraced "the deep" three years ago.

99ZX9R

Good time to revive this thread. I've been junk on the tree all year, but still managing to stay in the hunt for the Bracket Finals only because the car has been working great. I still stage shallow, but made up my mind that I will be a deep stager. Just need to get some practice first before trying it out when the real bullets are flying.

As for dialing hard, not sure I agree with that. Holding .01 to .03 has been working real well for me this year. The only thing worse than going red is not getting there.

futuretech

LOL, What have your reaction times been? Try not to change in the middle of the season. It will mess with your mind. I assume you mean dialing less that what your car will run when you say holding, right?

99ZX9R

Way too inconsistent. Last race I was -.020, .049 and .075. Problem is, my car is somewhat of an in between deep and shallow setup. Early in the year, I took the advice of the experts here and ran on a .500 pro tree and was no better than .060 shallow, leaving on the converter's sweet spot. This means I need to anticipate the 3rd amber to cut a better than .060 light. Not good. So I figure staging deep, I'll likely be set up red, but can lower my launch RPM or buy some taller fronts to compensate. Key is, I need to be able to leave on the 3rd amber and not before.

As for holding, I mean dialing slower than what the car will run (ie car ran a 10.32 in time shots, so I dial a 10.34). I'm not good enough to hold a lot, but a couple hundredths allows me to drive the stripe with some confidence, knowing that I'll get there without having to flat foot it out the back door.

Fuzzy Dice

Hey guys, remember when deep staging you will run about 8/100's, or more, slower...this is due to the lack of the "head start" you get shallow staging...all your increments will be higher as well...

If you run 10.32 normally then you should dial about 10.40, or more, to be dialed hard when staged deep...even more if you are holding...

If y'all begin deep staging, be aware of something that will eventually happen, especially up your way...you are about to go in deep when the starter drops the tree...oops..if you take off, you need to compensate for not being deep staged...you must scrub a bunch...it is like holding a tenth since you were dialed for deep but left shallow...

Down our way, they honor deep staging and if they goof up and drop the tree before we are in deep, we just sit there and they will re-run based on their mistake...

futuretech

I race at two tracks with different rollouts. I (try to) adjust the rpm by 200 to compensate. I never was consistent anticipating the third light. By going deep I just have to be patient and wait for it to come oin. I use a practice tree in the staging lane to reconnect my brain to my foot.

kazman

Marc, you not holding enough. Hold at least 05-06 even more if you going against a slower car. You will catch them sooner or have a huge lead and be able to start adjusting at the 1000' marker. You should be able to make 4-6 adjustments between the 1000 and the stripe. Takes seat time. KEEP AT IT.

Go deep. Talk to Bud and Dave to figure out how to take .030 out of the car (adjust the supension). RPM and rear tire pressure will take it from there.

99ZX9R

That's my problem for now. I don't have a drop point. My strategy so far has been to take minimal stripe every race (unless I know I'm not getting there, then I'll cut the guy loose). I've been able to take .020 stripe consistently, and even .00X if the dials are close, but if I'm holding 5+ and so is the other guy, I'm breaking out every time unless I killed him on the tree.



I've been meaning to get with Bud to take his class. Pete Huff wants to take it too, but he keeps procrastinating. We have a few weeks off from points after this Sat, probably a good time to get it done.