LSOHOLIC

Who has put a faceplated T56 (M6/M12) with a slipper (soft-loc) on the street ????

Not my DD and I don't mind the occasional "clunk" with no rpm in it.

I would like to discuss the do's and don'ts.....and any advise you'd be willing to give.


Thanks....

tomdcarguy

The m6 is easier to build due to a single/double gear design from f-body. The m12 is a double/triple design and requires more work to faceplate. Depends on what ratios you want. As far as clutch, i guess it depends on how much you mind adjusting it...

mAydAy121

I run a slipper on the street (not a sof-lok) with a syncro trans. I'd recommend getting a clutch built to the application, an off the shelf slipper isn't going to pull double duty very well. I'd absolutely go faceplated if I did it again, I've buzzed the 2nd gear syncros pretty well a few times. For a bit more money, you could look at a Pfitzner/PPG clutchless setup, which you could really take advantage of with the slipper...

Be prepared to adjust from 'street trim' to 'race trim' and adjust the clutch pretty regularly at the track. You can sorta kinda drive it on the street with the clutch backed down, but it will slip at low RPM's and in high gears.

LSOHOLIC

Thanks guys....The car sees about 1000 street miles a year. Basically a Friday/Saturday night ride with about 1 weekend a month at the track.

The adjustment issue is something I'll be looking into...I have a two post lift so......no that big of deal..I think .

OK, here is the main question/concern....I "cruise" the car more than track it. T-N-T and grudge "midnight" races are what I mainly attend at the track. And with being on the jug I'm thinking a slipper will reap big benefits especially with the faceplated 6 speed.

For what it is worth I have the RXT twin but I also have a BC2 (needs resurfaced). But after watching some of the big boys this weekend I'm leaning towards the slipper/faceplated setup.

Whats your thoughts on all that ??

Thanks......

tirecraft

The soft loc on the street isn't too bad when its got some turns in it , the clutch will need some heat in it before you can really get in it. If your spirited driver on the street its going to take a few different times making adjustments till you find your sweet spot . You will need to buy a sfi bell housing from quick time with a adjustment door in it. The t56 faceplated is pretty violent for street driving . Upgrading to a RPM level 6 tr6060 should be plenty strong enough for you ,we had 125 passes on kyles trans and only had minimal syncro damage.

LSOHOLIC

My other concern is the diff...behind these types of shifts. Its basically a 3 rib C5 case with 4.10's and C6 guts and shafts from RPM. I'm affraid this would be the weak link....check this video out of a faceplated/slipper in a mustang......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GNid...WOuXg&index=10

...now tell me I wouldn't be picking up diff side covers off the track .

tirecraft

Get the c6z diff and rear and you will have no issues. Looks like that sang is shifting in the air that's bad ***.

LSOHOLIC

Before I get all wound up with this faceplat/slipper setup and start buying stuff, let me ask this....

Take a set standard, like a repeatable driver, J-ROD, Ranger, Robz, Gary ect....sh*t I better throw Fartpipes name in there . And put them behind the wheel.....what would the ET/MPH difference be between a true clutch car vs. a faceplated/slipper setup. Same car just a tranny/clutch/hydro swap.

To me a true clutch car would always be slower and by a considerable amount. Is this an accurate statement ??

Thanks.....

LSOHOLIC

I've been turned on to some good reads....

This one is about a slipper (soft-loc) setup.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232952

This is a decent description of a faceplated trans.
http://www.libertysgears.com/faceplate-proshift.htm

From what others have said....a traditional clutch vs a slipper setup is worth a solid full second in your ET.

Agree ??

mAydAy121

No way. The gains will be entirely relative to your driving skill with a traditional clutch. The slipper clutch is a great way to become more consistent and allow you to control the slip mechanically, rather than having to try to control it precisely with your right foot (and it will NOT help a car that already has traction issues or suspension problems!!!).

Your gains should be almost entirely in 60', as its main function is to help get out of the hole, and lock up beyond there. You may gain a a tenth or so perhaps, depending on setup and how you were running before. The people that pick up more are probably running clutchless, which helps quite a bit.

And remember, a faceplated transmission is NOT a clutchless transmission. All faceplating does is help reduce missed shifts at high RPM. It goes back to reliability and consistency and is not likely to knock anything off the ET if you have a good transmission in there to start with.

The slipper will be much easier on driveline parts, which was what I was looking for when I went with it. The consistency and slight gains in 60' were just an extra benefit.

If you drive it on the street between track outings, you'll wear the clutch slightly and may have to add in a touch of base pressure from what you ran last time, its not a 'set it and forget it' sort of deal. I typically get the clutch about right, then fine tune with tire pressure. Its pretty easy to set on a clutch assisted setup, since your only adjustment is base pressure rather than the counterweight stuff that also comes into play on clutchless applications.

You will need to adjust between running on the street, on motor, on spray and with nitrous jet changes (unless you want to run it a little tight on the lower setups). Anything that results in a different HP level will result in a different clutch adjustment.

If you're looking for something to run on the streets of Mexico or any sort of roll racing, I'd tell you to head in the other direction, because this is the wrong tool for that.

LSOHOLIC

Thanks for the response...I think we are talking "around" each other on some of the topics. Did you see this post that I wrote ?? Take a set standard, like a repeatable driver, J-ROD, Ranger, Robz, Gary ect....sh*t I better throw Fartpipes name in there . And put them behind the wheel.....what would the ET/MPH difference be between a true clutch car vs. a faceplated/slipper setup. Same car, just a tranny/clutch/hydro swap.

To me a true clutch car would always be slower and by a considerable amount. Is this an accurate statement ?? This is in referance to what I high lighted in your post.....


That being said....You don't think the 1, 2, 3 shift plus the 60ft (which you alluded to) would be worth no more than a tenth ?? You must be a better driver than I. Not to mention the major advantages of the nitrous system simplicity.


If I'm understanding this correctly...the only clutching that goes on is the initial releasing into first gear. The rest being just rowing gears with the gas pedal on the floor.

And about your last statement...could you elaborate on this "other" way ?? Yes, my car is a "street" car thats on Hoosier DR's most of the time. And I will be sticking with a manual so if the "other" way is auto...well....I'm not interested. Now, if you think I would be quicker with the RXT or BC2 thats worth considering.

There are a couple guys around here driving there plated/slippers on the street. Granted they are older "muscle" with 4 speed jerico's. Don't know how big of difference that makes ??

Anyhow...thanks for the feedback...this is a great way for me to learn the in's and out's of this perticular setup.


Thanks....

mAydAy121

A faceplated transmission is NOT a clutchless transmission. Read through your own link about faceplating. You still have to depress the clutch between each gear. It helps prevent missed shifts, that is it. Faceplating is not likely to gain any in ET, its merely for reliability and consistency. I have no issues banging gears quite quickly with syncros, RobZ and Kyle obviously don't either.

If you are truly interested in CLUTCHLESS shifting, you need to research the Pfitzner/PPG gearbox I alluded to earlier. That's the only option out there for a clutchless T56 that I have seen. Be prepared, it is spendy.

MPH difference should be minimal, as I said before ET perhaps a tenth on a well sorted car versus a good driver. Perhaps not even that with an excellent driver, if the driver is able to fully utilize the combination through clutch modulation under foot. If you don't have the slipper set up right, it will very likely run SLOWER than a traditional clutch car, especially if you set it too loose. With the exception of the decreased shock load on parts, All the slipper clutch benefits will be realized in the launch. After the launch, it holds like a typical clutch (assuming you didn't set it too loose...)

A slipper clutch on a clutch-assisted transmission will serve purely as a tuning tool to improve consistency and slightly improve the launch along with greatly decreasing driveline shock. (It's much more necessary in a Jerico/Lenco type transmission, where preload is necessary)

A slipper clutch is not the holy grail of going fast in a manual transmission car, but it is a great tool if you pay it the attention it needs and use it properly.

You can pick up a little bit, but don't expect to change only clutches and set the world on fire. Just like many things in life -- it takes 10% of the effort to achieve the first 90%, and 90% of the effort to achieve the last 10%. This is a step in the last 10%, and a pretty serious step. Its not impossible, but it will require some effort.


Edit: I completely forgot to mention, and you probably aren't aware, that in addition to setting base pressure to control slip you also have to manage air gap (the distance the clutch disengages from the flywheel). Once again, not impossible, but you will need to have an adjustable M/C and should check it every time you go to the track. Too much air gap and it will hit the tires too hard, too little airgap and it won't shift/will buzz the syncros. The amount of heat in the clutch will effect air gap, which can become a trick especially hot lapping.

LSOHOLIC

Wow...OK...I'm here to learn from those who have done this....I understand that a faceplated manual
eliminates the need to worry about missed shifts. This is made possible by removing the stock synchronizers and opening up the engagement window for faster, higher rpm shifting. Nothing about clutchless......But the title of the thread is faceplated & slipper.

I am not here to ruffle feathers or **** anyone off. So I'm not sure what this is turning into...but I do understand the Soft-loc to be "clutchless" after the 1st gear engagement. Any truth in that ??

I know it hard to read "tone of voice or body language" via text but....it seems like your irratated by my questions ??

My only soild stand is the car will not go auto...other than that I'm up for opinions and discussion.

Thanks.....

LSOHOLIC

Thanks guys for the info....and mayday121 I think I'm following you. The "little" performance increase you were referring to was the "looser" gates in the trans with a "standard clutch". I can see what your saying reguarding that....
But I'm interested in the slipper setup. I've been reading on it for a week or two now and I think with some "serious" t-n-t I could come up with 2 setups. And yes the air gaps and heat build up seem to play a part in all of it.

Thanks and I done with this thread.

mAydAy121

I apologize if I came off angry, I did not mean to by any means. Just trying to clarify things -- there's a lot to take in here for sure, I'm trying to lay it all out as clearly as possible. I researched for a long time before putting together my setup, I wish someone had answered my questions as I am trying to answer yours.


I know you never used the words clutchless but what you have described here is referred to as clutchless. Using a faceplated transmission and a slipper clutch you still need to engage the clutch between gears.

With a faceplated transmission and a slipper clutch you would still drive the car down the track exactly the same as you would with a normal clutch and syncro transmission (with the exception that you should dump the clutch out the hole). Dump clutch at lights, clutch in shift 1-2, clutch in shift 2-3, clutch in shift 3-4. You have to use the clutch still every shift, irregardless of the clutch.


You will have to shift using the clutch, with any clutch, unless you go to a Jefco/Lenco/Jerico/Liberty/Etc or a PPG gearset. A slipper clutch is most often used in conjunction with a clutchless transmission such as one of those listed there, because the slipper allows for tuning at the launch and tuning via centrifigual force to preload the transmission at the launch and for the load between gears.


Please feel free to PM me if you have any more questions, I am more than willing to help however I can. I'm not trying to mean and I apologize if I came across as angry, I'm just trying to be extremely clear because I think you skipped over a few things I said in previous posts.

I want to make sure when I reiterate these things that you don't miss them and wind up with a several thousand dollar bucket of steel chunks when it doesn't work out as planned.

427Hotrod

Wow...I see my thread on the Chevelle Forum still has life!

A *slipper* clutch allows you to be very consistent and come out of the hole hard and keep your motor in the proper RPM range to accelerate hard. You can actually LOSE ET in the 60' and still go faster by the 330" and beyond. Don't sweat it...the race is a 1/4 mile long and being able to shift clean and keep RPM up helps.

I've found a *happy spot* where I can leave my adjustment the same on the street and on the strip. On street tires...it just spins tires anyway, so no excessive slippage.

You can setup the car where you can pull the next gear when it bumps the rev limiter. That will unload the gears for a nano-second and allow the shift. Or lift off gas slightly and you can make the shift on a faceplated trans without touching clutch. On a true clutchless trans (as described in the Chevelle link) the slight slippage on a shift helps it all work well.

JIM

Joe_G

Here you go.

0Ian@Keen Parts

Alright, I'll put in some input with what experience I've had with "slipper" style clutches.

Here's the real question that you need to ask: Are you utilizing the whole car to its fullest extent on a conventional clutch? If the car dead-hooks with the conventional, a slipper may not be neccesary unless it drags the motor down EXTREMELY hard, and the motor has an narrow/extremely high powerband. Basically, if you get to the point that there is no happy median between complete and total tire annihilation, and all out fall-on-your-face bog, then the slipper may be a good option, provided you're also using your suspension and applicable tire to its fullest extent. Not trying to sway you any one way or the other, just stating that this is something that should be examined before jumping into taking on a slipper/faceplate setup.

So, you've completely maxed out the car/tire/suspension. Maybe you do need the slipper. Make a call to McLeod and tell them your setup, and they can help you tailor fit something to your setup. They'll be able to give you some starting points for base pressure and counterweight, and from there it will be some amount of trial and error at the racetrack to see what works best for you personally.

Answering some questions:

Is the soft-loc usable on the street? Absolutely. Just don't expect to get the wear out of it you would out of a conventional setup. And as stated, it will require some heat before spirited driving, if that's your bag. Other than that, you'd never know the difference.

What's it like driving the faceplated trans on the street? Clunky, but otherwise no different than a stock transmission. If you need it nice, quiet, and smooth, it will not be for you. If you can put up with some race car tendencies out of your street car to make some difference at the track, then by all means, the faceplating is for you!

LSOHOLIC

Well it seems the thread is some what alive....Heres where I am at....I'm moving forward (slowly) on the faceplate deal but I'm sticking with the RXT. And I'm going to run the LPE torque cut/2-step box (clutch less beyond 1st when armed).

This car is to much of a street car for a slipper right now. On that note....Boninfante has really got the corvette setup figured out. If or when I go to a slipper, they will be the ones I call.

And Ian....its about a "street" twin hitting to hard !! Breaking sh*t !! Not wanting to slip very much !! I bit the bullet and had RPM upgrade my 4.10 setup...($2700 worth of upgrade) knowing that I'm staying with the RXT.

Thanks........So to recap...faceplated, RXT and LPE torque cut.

LSOHOLIC

Here is some more faceplated fun !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTd6kB0TuUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WGBw...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcb-JS4HAuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU1u-...eature=related


Thanks guys...and the last two have the torque cut box with a faceplated manual.