What difference in reaction times will staging deep make. In other words if one consistently has 0.150 reaction times when staged normal, what will be the reaction time when deep staged. This of course is assuming that you leave at the exact same time as when staged normal.

 

With no other changes, the deeper you stage, the quicker the RT...or greater the red light.

RACE ON!!!

 

I know this. But how much quicker if everything is the same? In other words when you deep stage(put out the top light) you are 8 inches closer.

 

You got THAT correct; if the driver ain't consistent, it ain't gonna matter WHERE he stages...
I bought my first practice tree in 1987, but, due to business constraints, couldn't begin racing until 1990;
I practiced with that tree every night until '90, making sure that my 'physical' reactions would be consistent as possible when I did begin racing.

In early '90, I took my mid-13-second Z28 to the track, and 'regular'-staging, I was consistent .61-.64, run-after-run-after-run...The torque converter was kinda 'tight', so I couldn't 'vary' my launch RPM; I was screwed!

I maxed-out the front PSI in the M/T 'skinnies' to 50+; this got me into the solid .58-.61 range, and the "First Round Runner-Ups" mounted steadily.

I began deep-staging in late May that year; instantly, I was going .47-.50, but in eliminations, I went .487-.496 Red (on the 'older' .500-system) 4 weeks in a row in the opening Round.

By mid-June, I hadn't won a single Round yet, but I 'tweaked' the linkage to just slightly delay it's motion, and dropped the front PSI back to reasonable numbers;
either the slower-motion of the linkage, or the increased rolling-resistence of the front tires (even deep-staged) put me into the steady .50-.530s at a mid-week test-n-tune session.

That Friday night, I won my first rounds of my career, and went to the Final Round;
my 1/4-final, semi-final, and Final Round lights were .507, .507, and a .519, only to lose to a very good friend's equally-good .511 and his dead-on run.

Each car is different; chassis configuration, gearing, torque, launch RPM, traction, body/weight-transfer...there is NO single 'correct' answer, but thru trial-and-error (and most importantly CONSISTENT DRIVING), you can and will learn the effects of 'going-deep'...

Be forewarned; your ET will increase approx .1-.2 seconds (my Z28 was approx .15-.18) due to less 'roll-out' (i.e.: a rolling-start) when deep-staging, but you can use this, too, to your advantage against your opponent.

Hope this helps!!!



[Modified by Glensgages, 12:23 PM 6/2/2004]

 

One of the WCCC members (Mike V) deep stages and has won the best R/T trophy three out of five races this year. I am thinking, it might be a good thing.

 

Deep staging will increase your et by exactly the amount it reduces your reaction time so be careful what you dial. Only deep stage if you have time trialed by deep staging. Sorry-Did not check your signature before responding but I can tell you that you can significantly reduce your reation time without deep staging by coming up hard against the convertor (Assuming an A4).

 

Dave I have never been able to quite measure that number from my own testing. I have asked many drivers and I usually get told you gain is only about 7 hundredths.

Have you tried varying the rpm at the line? I find that makes a huge difference.

 

I am running a stock converter so it doesn't stall much. It seems I do the best when I leave from an idle.

 

Dave

I average around .050 shallow staging... if I deep stage & leave the same I go RED... also Ralph used to stage & bump it in 4-5" last year and was a killer on the tree... now with the LED lights he is having a problem ..he is going RED..

If you are consistently .150 normal stage I suggest next time out during time trials try going deep... you should be damn close to a great light..

Just DONT change from time trial to eliminations.. if you go deep in TT go DEEP in eliminations.. Give it a try.. I'm guessing you will pick up .07 -.09 in reaction time...

 

Every CAR has different reaction times. Only experimentation will give you a definitive answer for YOU. The greater effect of lower front tire pressure isn't due to, "the increased rolling-resistence", as it is to the increased roll out distance, created by the "flatter tire".

RACE ON!!!

 

CFI-EFI:
I have been under the impression that since I was already deep-staged (i.e.: the back-edge of the tire just past the pre-stage beam), that roll-out, measured in inches from where the top-bulb is 'knocked-out', to where the back edge of the tire clears the stage beam, is the SAME, no matter what tire PSI that I'd had used.
That being the case, and since my new 'roll-out' when deep-staged is a 'constant', I attributed the slightly slower RTs to increased rolling resistence (the distance being the same, it now took more "ooomph" to get the car moving those few critical inches).
Is my thinking incorrect?

 

I didn't take into consideration, the parenthesized "(even deep-staged)" when I answered. In the deep stage situation, the roll out isn't a factor. Assuming one stops the instant the pre-staged bulb goes off, the roll out, is only the distance between the bulbs. In a situation other than deep staging, the roll out of the tire is increased by a reduction of pressure.

RACE ON!!!

 

Thanks, Glensgages, that was a very good post! Full of supporting detail.

Ranger

 

Sorry if it is off topic, but are you guys using the counting method or the reacting to the last yellow method. I was using the react to the last yellow method with street tires and was able to hit .5-.550's when moving in close to the second beam(not turning off the prestage). I switched to slicks, and no matter how close I move in, I am stuck in the 600's. Am I doing something wrong? I switched to the counting method and hit a .502 but it was a lucky guess(broke out anyway). At least with the react to the last yellow method, I was more consistent. Any suggestions??

 

I tried counting and it was less consistant for me.

 

Sorry if it is off topic, but are you guys using the counting method or the reacting to the last yellow method.
Not off-topic; this is an open-exchange of racing ideas...
I knew a 'decent' racer who 'counted' back when there were FIVE Yellow bulbs, but 'counting' can't be as 'reliable or consistent as reacting to the 3rd bulb...
After-all, it IS called 'Reaction Time'...

I was using the react to the last yellow method with street tires and was able to hit .5-.550's when moving in close to the second beam (not turning off the prestage). I switched to slicks, and no matter how close I move in, I am stuck in the 600's. Am I doing something wrong?
If you are CONSISTENTLY in a narrow-band (with-in .03) in the .600-range, " YOU " are fine;
it can be the slicks that make the difference, for a variety of reasons...
#1: If the slicks are 'taller' in diameter (circumference), you have effectively taken gear OUT of the car, via reduced TQ-multiplication (since we're ONLY talking a few hundredths of a second, every little bit matters...)
#2: Your new slick/wheel combination may weigh a bit heavier than your previous wheel/tires. Again, this minute amount of rotating-weight COULD be a determining factor...
#3: If your new slicks 'wrinkle' at the hit of the skinny-pedal, time is being wasted: while the slicks 'wrap-up' (wrinkle), the fronts are STILL sitting in the beams, and the RT-clocks are counting-away...

I switched to the counting method and hit a .502 but it was a lucky guess(broke out anyway).
Chances-are, you WERE lucky (no-offense)...
You didn't "react"; you "anticipated-correctly"...and it ain't called "ANTICIPATION TIME"...

At least with the react to the last yellow method, I was more consistent. Any suggestions???
You have answered your own question!
Winning at bracket-racing is NOT about 'going-fast'; it is about KNOWING how to leave first consistently;
KNOWING how fast you'll run consistently;
and KNOWING how to judge the stripe consistently.
If you are more consistent (60'-wise & ET-wise) with the slicks, and CONSISTENTLY mired in the low-.600 RT-wise while 'staging-shallow' (with both bulbs lit), why not try deep-staging?

The car's consistentcy in RT, 60', and ET will remain the same, and altho you'll give-up some ET (due to less roll-out, or rolling-start), your RT will dramatically improve, which will increase your chances of victory in bracket-racing...

As Dale Earnhardt said after winning at Atlanta in November in '86:
"When you go out to kick-azz.....KICK-azz!!!!! "



[Modified by Glensgages, 10:19 AM 6/3/2004]

 

Thanks for the tips Glensgages.

I am pretty sure their is a no deep-staging rule at the track that I race at, but I will check to make sure. The slicks are suppose to be the same height, but I did notice that the shifts were occuring a little further down the track. The slick wheel combo should be much lighter than the stock wheel/tire. #3 seems to make the most sense.

The problem with .600 lights is that I am racing against some great bracket race drivers that can cut low .500 lights. So the race is pretty much won/lost at the tree. I will keep on playing with how deep I stage and see if I have any more room before turning off that prestage light. I read that if you lower the pressure in your front tires, you have a little more room to stage. Has anyone tried this and what were the results?

 

:shocked:
Most tracks DO allow deep-staging (I think?), especially if you write the word "DEEP" on all windows visible to track staff & the tower. Check with the staff at your track (Waco Willie's 'Plex?) to see if 'going-deep' is allowed.

Deep-staging has raised a controversy because 'some' deep-stagers will try to "hang" their opponent out (make him wait, as they take their good 'ol' time to go-deep).

I try to start my burn-out with-or-before my opponent;
roll OUT of the burn-out directly to with-in a foot of the beams;
'pre-stage' at-idle well before my opponent;
'stage' at-idle JUST before he 'pre-stages';
and go-deep at-idle WELL before he makes his final 'stage' move.
This gives me ample time to bring the RPMs up to pre-determined level, and to visually 'FIND' the bottom bulb on the Tree, without breaking my opponent's routine.



A little mathethematics for ya'...

'Spose you run a 27" tall front tire, and the pre-stage/stage beam is 'supposed' to be 3" off the track surface, OK?
(Keep in mind that all 'loaded' tires don't 'sit' on a single point; they 'bulge' at the bottom, against the roadway/track-surface...but for OUR purposes, we'll 'imagine' that loaded tires ARE completelt round)

In the above instance, the spindle C/L is 13.5" (27" div/by 2= 13.5") off the track, and a 'chord', or 'front-to-back cross-section' of a 27" diameter tire 3" off the track is just under 17" (16.97", but we'll use 17") across (front-to-back).
Thus, a racer who stages regular (shallow), with the very front edge of the tire blocking the stage beam, must travel 17" to stop the RT clocks, and start the ET clocks, OK?

By reducing front PSI in the same tire, the 'foot-print' becomes even greater (think of a fully-flattened tire), and the 'chord' (front-to-back cross-section) becomes even greater, too, possibly 17.25", maybe even 17.5" or more in EXTREME cases.
All this 'extra' space is BEHIND the stage-beam, and will only FURTHER delay the RT clocks from stopping, resulting in even WORSE Reaction Times.

Conversely, by inflating tires to the max PSI (remember: REAL loaded tires are NOT round at the bottom), this 'chord' decreases to LESS than 17" across, and in a shallow-staged car, the back edge of the tire is CLOSER to the beam, generating quicker RTs...

The distance from the stage beam to the rear edge of the front tire @ 3" above the track surface (which activates the RT/ET clocks) is what is changing when you 'play' with PSI in a car that shallow-stages;
in a deep-staged car, the rear edge @ 3" up is a constant distance from the stage beam (AT the pre-stage beam), and varying PSI only changes rolling resistence (i.e.: power needed to MOVE the car) as CFI-EFI described above.

Many years ago, shrewd racers, going to a new track for the first time, and not knowing how a different track (better air = more HP = quicker RT; better traction = quicker RT; different timing system set-up = different RT) would take a few sets of mounted front tires in varying sizes (heights), to 'vary' their tire's 'roll-out' (the 17" 'chord-size'-distance we discussed earlier) and Reaction Times.




[Modified by Glensgages, 11:53 AM 6/3/2004]

 

Just to clarify, Deep Staging is when you turn off the Prestage but leave the Stage beam lit?
I thought I remembered seeing a "No Deep Staging" printed somewhere or on something at the track but I might be mistaken.

The distance from the stage beam to the rear edge of the front tire @ 3" above the track surface (which activates the RT/ET clocks) is what is changing when you 'play' with PSI in a car that shallow-stages;
in a deep-staged car, the rear edge @ 3" up is a constant distance from the stage beam (AT the pre-stage beam), and varying PSI only changes rolling resistence (i.e.: power needed to MOVE the car) as CFI-EFI described above.


That clears up alot of things. I knew that inching forward as much as possible would give me a better reaction time, but somehow I missed the fact that having a (longer?) tire would actually slow down RT's, more tire to move out.


I will have to experiment at the track once the weather breaks, but at least now I know what is actually going on.

 

(Assuming you ARE talking about Billy Meyer's Texas MotorPlex...)
The 'No Deep-Staging" signage you're talking about could be posted as a 'reminder' to contestants at NHRA National Events, held at the track, which is illegal in certain Sportsman classes (Super Comp, Super Gas, Super Street, etc.).

Your track may also be posting that for contestants in "Super Pro" eliminator, the quickest & most technologically-evolved class of bracket-racing, where racers leave off the TOP bulb, and use a 'delay-box' (nothing more than a timing-system, adjustable by thumb-wheels in the cockpit, allowing adjustment to the ".oooo" of a second) to release a trans-brake in the transmission to allow the car to move from the beams at a pre-designated timed-interval.
Since 99.9% of the racers in S/P run 'the Box' and leave "off-the-top", a racer wishing to cut a VERY good light simply "takes-some-time-outta-the-box' (or adds time, accordingly), and there is no reason to 'go-deep' to acquire better RTs...