TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!!
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Florida 33460
TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!!
Hello
Is there a manufacturer of Titanium custom lenght pushrods?
I am sure with Titanium retainers it would help hydraulicrollers to rev higher with out collapsing.
Is there a manufacturer of Titanium custom lenght pushrods?
I am sure with Titanium retainers it would help hydraulicrollers to rev higher with out collapsing.
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,329
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Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it wouldn't change a thing....ok maybe 300-400 more RPM but thats about it. Would make one big difference on a solid roller tho.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
I have not heard of them. I am unsure of why people cling to beating a dead horse. I've heard it all out of H-Roller people - Rev kits, bigger springs. :confused: Why don't you just get a solid roller and not give valve float another thought. I have owned two 9000 rpm small blocks and I put in heavier 3/8ths push rods to handle the load.
I don't worry about doing 7500 in my 383. Before i built this last motor I really considered H-Roller because of the fast 1/4's being attained by fellow members with 383's. I talked to ever cam manufacturer I could and when they say the best of everything is 7000 rpm or less. That was all I needed to hear. If they can't do it. It can't be done. :yesnod:
[Modified by gkull, 9:57 AM 12/7/2001]
I don't worry about doing 7500 in my 383. Before i built this last motor I really considered H-Roller because of the fast 1/4's being attained by fellow members with 383's. I talked to ever cam manufacturer I could and when they say the best of everything is 7000 rpm or less. That was all I needed to hear. If they can't do it. It can't be done. :yesnod:
[Modified by gkull, 9:57 AM 12/7/2001]
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Park Ridge IL
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
I've never heard of anyone that makes titanium pushrods, I'm not saying there isn't a company that does though. My guess is that the problem with titanium pushrods would be wear at the tips. Although titanium is lighter and stronger than steel, it does wear and gall faster. Titanium valves do no have the same longevity as steel valves do, and require a steel lash cap to prevent accelerate valve tip wear. My guess is that steel tips would also be required on titanium pushrods. Also, the majority of the weight advantage to be gained is on the valve side of the rocker anyway. I'll bet that NASCAR and NHRA type teams have looked into it though.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (Monty)
Monty - Did you also understand that titanium valves require special seats. I never ask what the difference is. Maybe just larger for more holding to the head area or special metal. But my sprint car buddies said that they would knock the seats out of the heads. Back when they first went with them.
All of my push rods are Crane Cams 5/16th 3 piece two steel pressed ends and heavy wall chromemoly shafts
All of my push rods are Crane Cams 5/16th 3 piece two steel pressed ends and heavy wall chromemoly shafts
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,429
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From: CA
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (Lohkay)
Titanium can be brittle. The walls of the pushrod would need to be thicker to compensate. Stainless is stronger, but you have the weight that comes with it.
The best thing about Titanium is it's ability to handle heat. I've seen Titanium turn white hot in the exhaust section of jet engines. It's really an incredible metal. It's almost impossible to drill through even with the most expensive Cobalt bits.
I think Titanium parts are the only way to go for a pure race car/team.
The best thing about Titanium is it's ability to handle heat. I've seen Titanium turn white hot in the exhaust section of jet engines. It's really an incredible metal. It's almost impossible to drill through even with the most expensive Cobalt bits.
I think Titanium parts are the only way to go for a pure race car/team.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Park Ridge IL
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (gkull)
Yes, I optioned my Dart 18* heads with titanium valves, and had to also upgrade the valve seats as well as the valve guides. They use a different bronze alloy to prevent the valves from galling.
Now I'm having the exhaust valves swapped to Inconel and the seats ahve to be changed again. Luckily, the titanium exhaust valves are all in excellent shape and I'm selling them to another guy that runs the same heads I do. I'm only getting about 50% of my money back, but it's better than nothing.
As for the pushords, I would just stick with the tried and true 4340 one piece 3/8" pushrods. They're pretty much foolproof.
If you want to go lightweight, you can use pushrods from CV Products like the NASCAR guys do. 3/8" or 7/16" tapered at each end to either 5/16" or 3/8" respectively - htis way you get plenty of rigidity but it's still lightweight. That's what I did.
Now I'm having the exhaust valves swapped to Inconel and the seats ahve to be changed again. Luckily, the titanium exhaust valves are all in excellent shape and I'm selling them to another guy that runs the same heads I do. I'm only getting about 50% of my money back, but it's better than nothing.
As for the pushords, I would just stick with the tried and true 4340 one piece 3/8" pushrods. They're pretty much foolproof.
If you want to go lightweight, you can use pushrods from CV Products like the NASCAR guys do. 3/8" or 7/16" tapered at each end to either 5/16" or 3/8" respectively - htis way you get plenty of rigidity but it's still lightweight. That's what I did.
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: Texas
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (71coupe)
[QUOTE]Titanium can be brittle. The walls of the pushrod would need to be thicker to compensate. QUOTE]
This isn't correct actually. Titanium is a very resilient metal. Much more so than steel. It also has a near infinite fatigue life, whereas steel will become work hardened and eventually fail.
The only time it becomes brittle is when it is welded in the presence of oxygen.
The problem with using Ti as a pushrod material is that it won't perfom well under compression if the material's shape is long and slender(ie. pushrod). It will want to curve slightly especially with heavy valve springs. Ti is too flexible for this application.
This isn't correct actually. Titanium is a very resilient metal. Much more so than steel. It also has a near infinite fatigue life, whereas steel will become work hardened and eventually fail.
The only time it becomes brittle is when it is welded in the presence of oxygen.
The problem with using Ti as a pushrod material is that it won't perfom well under compression if the material's shape is long and slender(ie. pushrod). It will want to curve slightly especially with heavy valve springs. Ti is too flexible for this application.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: CA
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (Cam Potter)
Cam - From what I've seen with Titanium, stainless steel is stronger.
I work with jet engines, and I've seen titanium blades wiped out because the engine injested a large plastic bag! I've also seen an JT-3 engine with stainless blades eat a pelican & not even have a rise in the EGT.
Titanium may be more resilient, but it will break & tear quicker.
Stainless blades seem to handle an impact much better than titanium
at least in jet engines.
I work with jet engines, and I've seen titanium blades wiped out because the engine injested a large plastic bag! I've also seen an JT-3 engine with stainless blades eat a pelican & not even have a rise in the EGT.
Titanium may be more resilient, but it will break & tear quicker.
Stainless blades seem to handle an impact much better than titanium
at least in jet engines.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Lafayette IN
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (71coupe, Cam potter)
It is tough to make arguments on the selection of materials to use for one application. You say that you have seen titanium blades break with plastic bags, which I have no doubt that can happen. But it is kinda tough to base a material selection on one material property.
You really gotta look at the whole picture--Tensile strength, yield strength, mod. of elasticity, mod. of toughness, mod. of resilliance, % elongation...the whole nine yards.
If you just look at one property, it could lead a person to believe that polystyrene would be the best application for the job :eek: which is obviously bogus.
I see where both of you are coming from. I use Matweb.com quite a bit for my lab reports and checked out there some of the basic properties. There are just way too many grades listed for me to know which exact steel is used and the heat treating process it underwent for me to argue either way. :yesnod:
So :cheers: to you both. I understand where both of you are coming from. -Matt-
[Modified by HighHopes85, 7:54 PM 12/7/2001]
You really gotta look at the whole picture--Tensile strength, yield strength, mod. of elasticity, mod. of toughness, mod. of resilliance, % elongation...the whole nine yards.
If you just look at one property, it could lead a person to believe that polystyrene would be the best application for the job :eek: which is obviously bogus.
I see where both of you are coming from. I use Matweb.com quite a bit for my lab reports and checked out there some of the basic properties. There are just way too many grades listed for me to know which exact steel is used and the heat treating process it underwent for me to argue either way. :yesnod:
So :cheers: to you both. I understand where both of you are coming from. -Matt-
[Modified by HighHopes85, 7:54 PM 12/7/2001]
Le Mans Master
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From: delmont pa
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Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
titanium can not be hardened and to prevent wear push rods have to be hardened. they have tried carbon fiber push rods with hardened insert tip and they turned to powder in the engine. use a rev kit for more RPMs plus if you lose a rocker or a push rod the lifter will no jump out and turn 90 degrees in the bore a bust the block. i have seen that happen :chevy
[Modified by clem zahrobsky, 12:16 PM 12/8/2001]
[Modified by clem zahrobsky, 12:16 PM 12/8/2001]
Safety Car
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From: Fountain Hills AZ
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
I don't know much about the properties of titanium but I do know that cam and valve train mfg's spend major bucks in search of a better product and I suspect that if a superior material were available it'd be widely advertised. If you can't rev high enough to utilize the potential of your cam, contact the mfg and ask them what they used to develope it. I doubt that they would sell a cam that required more rpm than is possible in it's intended application.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,477
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From: Florida 33460
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!!
Ok this was an intresting conversation. I will bay steeltips from Crane and manafacture my owns using titanium 3/8" tubing. I know 300-400 rpms are not much but i am sure it will make a difference with titanium retainers + locks.
i let you know how it works !
i let you know how it works !
Le Mans Master
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From: delmont pa
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Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
you will have to use pastic push rod guide plates because the hardered guide plates will eat the titanium alive. :chevy
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Florida 33460
Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (clem zahrobsky)
Hello Clem this is getting intresting ... I wont be needing guides at all .I will use Self-Aligning rockers .Yes, this works small blocks only.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2001
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Re: TITANIUM PUSHRODS?? to make hyd.roller rev!! (bowtie racing)
Titanium work hardends and then will crack just by being used as a skin on the Pratt and Whitney Fan Ducts.I am with GKULL.There are other valve train components that have been proven to live at 7500rpm plus for long periods .Titanium retainers have been around a long time and I suspect if titanium pushrods was a doable thing they would have already been in use.
