Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
From: Beltsville Maryland
Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder
I plan on meeting with an engine builder about building my next engine.I would like some serious suggestions on the things to say,not say,pitfalls to avoid and dos and don'ts.
Iam trying to avoid some of the mistakes made by many others I know.
I recently planned and worked with an chassis fabricator to build a 4-link suspension for my C4.That project worked out fine.What I learned there was that a good fabricator is not necessarily a good suspension tuner.
Going into this I know the power level I want and the application will be ET bracket racing.Don't want a high maintenance motor that one has to spin the poopie out of on every run.Reliability and consistency are foremost.
Thanks...Phil
Iam trying to avoid some of the mistakes made by many others I know.
I recently planned and worked with an chassis fabricator to build a 4-link suspension for my C4.That project worked out fine.What I learned there was that a good fabricator is not necessarily a good suspension tuner.
Going into this I know the power level I want and the application will be ET bracket racing.Don't want a high maintenance motor that one has to spin the poopie out of on every run.Reliability and consistency are foremost.
Thanks...Phil
Racer
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Arlington Texas
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
In my opinion cleanliness is next to Godliness when it comes to building an engine. Make sure you check out the people who are actually going to put the engine together, are they competent? Is the shop clean? You'll be amazed at who you find doing the actual work. Does he bore with a torque plate, brush all oil passages, look at some of the cam bearings in blocks that he has in process (are they burred or like new), does he chase the threads in the block with a tap before assembly, what clearances does he recommend/use for rod and main bearings, ask how he checks crank end play, what clearances does he recommend for cast vs. forged pistons, ask what it means to "degree" a cam, what does duration mean, etc. These are meant to determine if the people working on your engine really understand engine basics! There are many more questions you can ask. If they don't know the answers to these type of questions you're dealing with the wrong shop.
These guys are in a volume business. And not all will give the block the attention and detail that you would.
Good Luck.
:flag
These guys are in a volume business. And not all will give the block the attention and detail that you would.
Good Luck.
:flag
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
You already have an extreamly fast machine. RPM is what kills every motor. So I would present a game plan with the best heads, the most cubic inches, the most compression, the least amount of reciprocating weight.
For the motor a 4.125 X 4.125 bore and stroke. Sub 50 cc heads I think that they are 42 cc or so in the 14 degree models. Around 13 C/R for gas N/A. the lightest pistons/crank/damper. Rods I would go big h beam and as long as possible. Find out ahead of time if your lifter type can run with oil restrictors
For the motor a 4.125 X 4.125 bore and stroke. Sub 50 cc heads I think that they are 42 cc or so in the 14 degree models. Around 13 C/R for gas N/A. the lightest pistons/crank/damper. Rods I would go big h beam and as long as possible. Find out ahead of time if your lifter type can run with oil restrictors
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
To me , the first rule is to discuss EVERYTHING. Don't take anything for granted. Don't ASSUME that anything is included. If you know what he is planning to do, and he knows what you expect, you should be fine. If afterwards you have to say, "But I thought...", you haven't laid enough ground work. If you don't have confidence in your knowledge going in, consider involving a more knowledgable friend. Two heads are always better, in any case. Or possibly a crate motor. The biggest problems result from a lack of mutual understanding of what the other expects. The word "Communication", is the key. Good luck.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
From: Beltsville Maryland
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
Thanks to all that responsed.Some very good points made.
Iam currently running the original stock short block.The bottom end has never been touched.Instead of putting a forged rotating assembly in the 350 block,Iam seriously considering starting with a aftermarket block.
Thanks Again..Phil C
Iam currently running the original stock short block.The bottom end has never been touched.Instead of putting a forged rotating assembly in the 350 block,Iam seriously considering starting with a aftermarket block.
Thanks Again..Phil C
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,418
Likes: 1
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
Although not key to the compentency of the builder,if he has the abilities to sonic check,broach lifter bores,machine pistons for spirolocks you are in general at a higher end shop.
You might ask him this,when sonic testing a .080 over GM 400 block what he considers the minimum amount of material between the bores and the thrust side should be left.See if he has a suitable answer.
Your car runs well.Hats off to you after I saw it at I think it was Beach Bums site.Suggestion would be for nothing trick just some more cubes and carefull attention to stall converter/cam combination for consistent launches.A hi winder will not be needed or desirable for bracket racing and to be realistic in the lenght of the rod you chose.
Good luck
You might ask him this,when sonic testing a .080 over GM 400 block what he considers the minimum amount of material between the bores and the thrust side should be left.See if he has a suitable answer.
Your car runs well.Hats off to you after I saw it at I think it was Beach Bums site.Suggestion would be for nothing trick just some more cubes and carefull attention to stall converter/cam combination for consistent launches.A hi winder will not be needed or desirable for bracket racing and to be realistic in the lenght of the rod you chose.
Good luck
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
From: Beltsville Maryland
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (mountainmotor)
MountainMotor,thanks for the kudos.Yes,I don't want to spin the daylights out of the motor to make the peak numbers.But,using a big SBC,can I avoid it entirely? A BBC is not totally out of the question.I may have to tighten up my 4800-5000 stall converter that Iam using with my current SB.
The builder i plan on talking to builds alot of IHRA ProMod motors.But,he also builds SB's.Not sure what direction he may want to pursue.
Thanks...Phil
The builder i plan on talking to builds alot of IHRA ProMod motors.But,he also builds SB's.Not sure what direction he may want to pursue.
Thanks...Phil
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 159
Likes: 21
From: McKinney Tx
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (mountainmotor)
Try to look at his other work. Also go for someone that does endurance engines as they know more about longevity issues such as clearances and oiling as well as the pistons that really run etc. The shop should be clean with a clean room style assembly room as well.
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Drifting
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,418
Likes: 1
Re: Do's and Don'ts .with an Engine builder (wheelsup)
As you can probably tell by my user name I like them big. Well over 540 ci inches of it.You have done your homework very well to acheive the results you have so far.I expect you will not fail in the future.Yes at some point you will have to spin a big small block up.To what extent is unknown until the owner decides how fast his car needs to be.I would though expect that a Rat motor would live a longer more trouble free life as opposed to a big small block in a car that say just for example was set to run the high 8's.The big motor would not have to work as hard as in spun up..I have an idea the builder you speak of might lead you in that direction
Have you talked to these guys?
http://www.sonnysracing.com/
Again,good luck and please keep us posted as to how it goes.
[Modified by mountainmotor, 5:07 PM 3/28/2002]
Have you talked to these guys?
http://www.sonnysracing.com/
Again,good luck and please keep us posted as to how it goes.
[Modified by mountainmotor, 5:07 PM 3/28/2002]
