Anyone running an aftermarket distributorless ignition?

I have been considering either the new MSD Coil Per Cyilinder setup or the FAST eDist and have decided to go with the EDist. The MSD system is trick, but I already have all of it's funtionality in my FAST SEFI since I already have individual cylinder control. The eDist will replace both the distributor as well as the MSD Digital 6 ignition box if I also run LS1 coils (coil per cylinder). I'm planning on mounting the coils low near the block/oil pan, with ignition wires less than 12" long or so. The ignition system wouldn't even be visible from the top of the engine, and since I'm doing away with the mechanical distributor, as well as the MSD box, it seems like it would improve accuracy and reliability.

If anyone wants a barely used MSD Pro-Billet distributor (8570, small cap with slip collar), MSD Digital 6+ Ignition (6520) with MSD HVC coil (8252) for a good price let me know.

 

you got mail!!!!!

 

No doubts that you will... But I am definitly interested in an update once you swap the stuff out.
I would like to go distributorless with my car, just a matter of $ at this point.
Also want to make sure its worth it...
:thumbs:
Matt

 

does it completely remove the distributor? If so, where do they add the new trigger?

 

I'd say it relies on a crank trigger... very interesting tho and I hope u'll keep us updated monty! :cheers:

 

Yes, it completely replaces the distributor.

You replace the distibutor with a "plug" which has a cam/oil pump drive gear on the bottom, but it pretty much sits flush with the intake manifold surface.

Since I still need a cam position sensor for sequential efi(I currently use the distributor to provide the EFI with a cam position signal via a modified reluctor wheel - all the reluctors are removed except the one for the #1 cylinder signal), and now distributorless ignition, it also has 2 electrical leads which are used to provide a cam position sensor to the FAST box.

The FAST eDist takes the points signal from the FAST SEFI and handles that to fire the appropriate coil on plug. There is no mechanical component that can effect ignition accuracy. As long as the FAST recieves the cam position signal for the #1 cylinder before it recieves the crank trigger signal, it will always be exactly accurate. It would take very significant wear of the cam gear before it could become 10*+ retarded.

This is very similar to how the LS1/6 operates, and since it is actually using LS1 coils, you can confident in the reliability of OEM components - much more so than MSD stuff, which is generally pretty good.

Additionally, you get increased spark power over an MSD setup which uses a single coil, becuase you are only firing each coil once every 2 rpm, vs. 4x per rpm with a conventional ignition arrangement. The increases coil saturation, as well as reduces the operating temp of the coil. Also, since you have 8 coils, even if one were to fail, 7 other cylinder would still operate.

This leads to other possibilities which are going to be used in the future aftermarket EFI systems. It will be used in the near future as part of a traction control scheme. If you break traction, the EFI system could cut the signal to individual coils, limiting power until traction is regained, and it can also be used for "displacement on demand" where only certain cylinders are fired based on engine demand, providing significant improvements in fuel efficiency.

From what I have heard, some of this stuff should be a reality within the next year or less when the new FAST EFI system is reduced, as well as John Meany's Big Stuff III(which sounds even cooler becuase it sounds like it will also incorporate wastegate management/boost control so that if you break traction boost can be reduced and reapplied as traction is regained).

 

Monty-

I wound up with some info on the eDist installation diagrams if you want to see them before you buy it.

Also - although it hasn't nearly enough flash for your engine - GM makes a low-profile (Vortec) cam-sync/oil drive unit to fit regular SB & BB castings - not sure about yours. I believe it's GM p/n 1104068. The pic I have is too big to post, but I can send it if you care to look.

(FWIW - Seems to me you used the MSD external crank trigger on yours. FYI, I recently built an internal trigger out of the L31 Vortec timing cover & crank position sensor pieces. Just got it running last month & so far it works great - plus it doesn't take up any extra room in the engine bay. I dubbed it the L98 Pacemaker:
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/doc.../0parts_aa.jpg )

 

thanks Monty. I spent some time on the FAST website looking for some information, but I only found a few paragraphs from their catalog.

DOCTOR J, very trick.

 

Doctor J,

Sure, I'd appreciate it. I haven't recieved the eDist yet, but I'm planning on buying the LS1 coils to day and start building a mounting plate for them.

This Vortec cam-sync/oil pump drive you mentioned, does it go in the distributor hole in an SBC? Do you know if it has a slip collar, because I have a tall deck block.

Looks like you have done some neat fabrication, looks very nice! I really appreciate people who can figure out and fabircate their own solutions. I try to do that whenever possible, at least to the extent of my abilities and capabilities. I'm getting better I thin, at least compared to where I was last year at this time.

 

DOCTOR J can you post some info on how you did it...looks like a really cool thing to do.

Jay

 

A little update for those that asked...

I stopped by a local Chevy dealer today and inquired about the price of the LS1/LS6 coils, they wanted almost $68 a a piece, plus they had to special order them. It was going to cost nearly $600 just for the 8 coils. That was too much considering my car runs perfectly fine as is. Luckily, I checked around on the internet and found them for $38 a piece at Paceparts.com which with shipping was $300. I've already got a commitment to sell my current ignition system, so it isn't costing me too much to switch from a conventional ignition system to the distributorless ignition.

The part number number for the coils is: 12558948
I also ordered the FAST eDist, part number 30-5001, which is the LS1/6 direct fit. It doens't have the coil drivers the Universal eDist 30-5000 has, becuase the LS1/6 coils have the drivers built in.

I also ordered the MSD cam synch/distributor plug for a wet sump application, part number 3514.

Once I get these major parts, I'll have to figure out how to wire it all together and make new spark plug wires. The LS1/6 have a different coil plug than a SBC, but I've been told it's the same as an LT1, which most of the aftermarket ignition compnaies make plugs/spark plug wires for.

 

Great stuff doctor J! And totally agree with you on the custom jobs monty...its really impressive to see what people can do when they know it ain't god that made their car. :cheers:

 

Monty-

1. I sent 3 e-mails & some big atachments to your yahoo address yesterday - did any of them show up?

2. Thanks for the kind thought on my fabricating skills. However what I did was really the opposite: The parts I used are stock GM pieces (not all of us have your engine budget!). All I had to do was make them fit on a SB with minimum machining, and work out an interface box to connect the trigger to the HEI module. I wanted to get the crank signal in hand before I went on to the 8-coil design...

3. If you need a hand connecting your setup give me a shout - electronic gizmos are a hobby of mine.


Others asking about the internal trigger-

It's only been running a few weeks & is not finished testing yet. When I complete the design/evaluation maybe I'll put some details up on my site. If I do, I'll post a link on the PROM board & here. Thanks for your comments.

 

DOCTOR j,

Yes, I got them. Thank you very much. I thought I sent a reply back to you. Sorry if I didn't.

I'm decent at installing and connecting electronic components like the EFI systems, fuel pumps, fans, etc, but designing and making electronic components is beyond me. I read the DIY EFI stuff sometimes and it's just way over my head.

I should get my eDist, distibutor plug/cam synch, and coils this Friday, so I'll figure out what I need then. The LS1 direct fit eDist already has the right Metripak plugs to connect to the coils I think. If not, Ill have to buy some and make my own harnesses, but I can do that. When I installed the FAST EFI and the FAST TCU, I used the Metripak/Wetaherpak connectors so I already have the proper tools and stuff. other than that, I guess I'll need to make up some new spark plug wires since the coils use a different spark plug wire end. I've been told it's the same as the LT1 Optispark.

Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know if I run into anything I can't figure out.

As a side note, these LS1 coils will be the only GM part on my engine. Oh well...

 

Well I received the FAST eDIST yesterday, as well as the MSD distributor plug with cam synch. The MSD plug uses hall-effect for the cam synch signal, as well as a 4 plug Metripak connector, the eDist has a 2 pin Weatherpack connector. It sounds like I'm going to have to send my FAST SEFI box back to FAST to have it converted over for a hall-effect cam synch reference signal. I'm going to call MSD on Monday to find out what the pin outs are for the cam plug connector and then repin the eDist connector. I think the additional pins for the cam synch plug are for input power required for hall-effect(?). This cam plug is originally intended for their new Coil Per Cylinder system, but they also sell it individually. Unfortunately, the instructions that come with it don't include a schematic of the pin outs.

Needless to say, this is going to take a little more effort than I anticipated. So far, I haven't found anyone who has actually done this firsthand, the serial number on my eDist is 52! No matter, the LS1 coils won't get here until the middle of next week anyway. Speaking of which, a local Chevy dealer wanted $67 each for them, while I was able to buy them for $30 each for GMpartsdirect.com.

 

Monty-

Doesn't seem like you're getting much help. Let me give a try (stop reading if you know this already):

The Hall-effect sensor just means the MSD cam sync output signal is a square wave (as opposed to the AC signal from your present VR set-up). The Hall signal can be either positive- or negative-going at the trigger point. Commercial Hall units in automotive service AFAIK most often use an open-collector output that can be wired for either a pu or pd resistor, and thus they usually have only have 3 connections. An example is here:
http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/0622/

So you really do need the schematic from MSD to see what they built for the 4th wire, and how the output is configured. Do you have a pic of the MSD piece (I didn't see any on the website)? That might tell some of what's going on...


From the instructions it looks like the eDist box will hook right to the MSD Hall switch - you just need to get Craig Smith to tell you if it wants a hi or lo index (you would expect it to go high, but Craig is pretty tight with info).

As far as converting the FAST SEFI box cam-sync signal from VR to Hall, in electronic terms you usually just need to add a capacitor (for AC coupling) from the Hall output, something like this:
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/doc...pled_input.jpg

And voila, an AC (aka VR) output. The parts cost than a buck - it would be interesting to see what FAST gets for the work. Of course to do that at home you would need to mock it up on the bench with an O-scope, to make sure it wouldn't smoke the mega-buck FAST box...

Anyway, hope some of this helps. BTW, if you get Craig to tell you anything I'm curious to know if the LS1 coils have a built-in dwell circuit, or if they rely on the ECM trigger signal for total coil on-time. Maybe he'll tell you...

Good luck.

 

Thanks Doctor J,

Some of that stuff is a little beyond me, but I think I understand.

I think FAST charges about $40, plus shipping to convert it to Hall-Effect, at least that's what I've been told. I'm sure it's very easy to do, as you indicated, but the FAST box is tamper-sealed and opening it will void the warranty.

Well, if anyone is interested, the pin outs for the MSD 8514 cam synch distributor plug (metripak) is:

A = Not Used
B = Ground
C = Hall-Effect 5v input(+)
D = Hall-Effect Signal (-)

 

Ohh NO!! Monty, does this mean that the F.A.S.T. ecu will no longer be useful if you were to sell it? "that being if you upgraded to the John Meany setup".No big deal, I just wanted to give youa hard time. :)

 

You could either run a distributorless ignition setup as well, or send it back to FAST to have them reconvert it back to inductive cam synch ($40).

BTW, this is taking me longer than I anticipated, so I don't know when I'll be able to sell the ignition stuff. I might not switch over to the DIS setup until next winter since I have to send my FAST box to FAST. I don't want to have the car out of service for a couple of weeks during the driving season.


[Modified by Monty, 11:29 AM 4/22/2003]

 

monty, i would love to see a pic of that cam sync dist. plug. how much was it? i was going to modify my distributor for the cam sync , but i would much rather go that way.