LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings
Pulling some oil thru the engine, did a leak down test & had 2-3% when hot & 5-6% when cold. Pulled the intake & no oil was being pulled in from the valley, all dry. I've done the Z06 air strainer/filter mod to the PCV system, and am catching some oil in the filter. I can see some burned oil on the backside of the intake valves, so my guess is I'm pulling the oil thru the valve guides? I've got the factory positive LT4 valve seals. Less than 5K miles on the guides.
Any opinions??
Any opinions??
Racer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 285
Likes: 5
From: Grass Valley, Ca.
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (superlund)
Did you replace the guides in the heads or were they new when you put the motor together? Sounds like the tolerances were a bit on the high side to start. But then again those open road races aren't real kind to parts either. Or it must be the Redline MTL in your gearbox. Yeah, that's it :lol:
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Widebody)
Yes new guides, need to re-check the guide to stem clearance. What should it be on the Gapless rings? I'm sure it needs to be tight, Total Seal was no help. Their only suggestion was that my high volume oil pump might be filling the top end with oil, lose the HV pump. I enlarged the oil drain back holes in the heads when I installed the pump. I use the HV pump for the front mounted external oil cooler & associated additional plumbing/-10 lines.
BTW, I only put MTL in the engine.... :crazy:
[Modified by superlund, 7:53 AM 1/8/2004]
BTW, I only put MTL in the engine.... :crazy:
[Modified by superlund, 7:53 AM 1/8/2004]
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 3,631
Likes: 14
From: Fountain Hills AZ
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (superlund)
I saw a 30% increase in vacuum at idle with Total Seal rings so I could see how they might increase the chances of drawing oil past the guides.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Vetterodder)
Yes they seal very well, but I'm starting to wonder if they are worth the additional trouble? I put these same rings in an air cooled Porsche 2 liter, a few years back and had the same trouble. The rings are sealed (2-3% leak down) the intake is bone dry. IMHO, it must be coming thru the valve guides. I need someone who has conquered the problem to chime in with a workable solution.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,215
Likes: 6
From: Tampa Florida
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (superlund)
My brother is running these rings in a 461 BBC and having similar issues. He has tried most suggestions-intake sealing, restrictor in the PVC line, etc with no solution.
Too much trouble he thinks and will switch to the normal file to fit plasma moly rings...disappointing as I was a big fan of them-seem like a great idea.
Too much trouble he thinks and will switch to the normal file to fit plasma moly rings...disappointing as I was a big fan of them-seem like a great idea.
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 3,631
Likes: 14
From: Fountain Hills AZ
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (No Go)
My brother is running these rings in a 461 BBC and having similar issues. He has tried most suggestions-intake sealing, restrictor in the PVC line, etc with no solution.
Too much trouble he thinks and will switch to the normal file to fit plasma moly rings...disappointing as I was a big fan of them-seem like a great idea.
Too much trouble he thinks and will switch to the normal file to fit plasma moly rings...disappointing as I was a big fan of them-seem like a great idea.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,017
Likes: 79
From: central FL, near the beach.
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (superlund)
i'd be curious to check the tension of the oil ring.
u know how GM got into trouble with the Z06 low tension rings.
use a fish scale.
u know how GM got into trouble with the Z06 low tension rings.
use a fish scale.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,215
Likes: 6
From: Tampa Florida
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Vetterodder)
The cylinder heads have been refinished twice-once when the gapless rings were installed and again a second time with larger valves-both times new guides/seals were installed.
I wish we could have made them work...the benefit is he has some 10,000 miles on the 461 he built himself hooked to 4.10 gears...lots of rpm all the time-does say something for leak down, etc.
:)
I wish we could have made them work...the benefit is he has some 10,000 miles on the 461 he built himself hooked to 4.10 gears...lots of rpm all the time-does say something for leak down, etc.
:)
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Matt Gruber)
Well to be honest, I have never checked the actual oil ring tension, I ordered & received a box that shows standard tension oil rings but that does not mean anything. I suppose they could possibly miss-package a set of low tension oil control rings, or maybe their standard tension oil rings are lower tension than other brands??
How many pounds should I see on the pull test with a 4.03 cylinder bore?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Matt Gruber)
I'll get the short block out, pull a piston & post the results of a pull test on the oil control rings. I assume the cylinder is to be lubricated during the test??
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,017
Likes: 79
From: central FL, near the beach.
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (superlund)
fish scale works good on a bare block, but, on an assembled block i would pull 1 rod cap, put hose on the bolts to protect the crank, and with the crank at the bottom and the piston at the top, put weights on the piston until it slides down.(with oil).
to increase,
buy a cheap set of rings(throw away the 2 top rings) and file the oil expander until you get the desired tension(assuming you don't want 36)
to increase,
buy a cheap set of rings(throw away the 2 top rings) and file the oil expander until you get the desired tension(assuming you don't want 36)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,108
Likes: 126
From: S.L.C. UT
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (Matt Gruber)
I also had oil control problems with gapless rings. I used the C&A zero gaps. I ended up tearing my motor back down and using Speed Pro file fit rings. Problem solved.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 1
From: Wichita KS
Re: LT4 Oil Control Problem - Total Seal Rings (tpi 421 vette)
Thanks Matt, I'll try a couple different methods & post the results, it may be a week or so until I get the motor completely out & tore down.
tpi 421 vette, I happened to call Childs & Albert earlier today about their ZGS line of gapless second rings. Spoke with a Tech Rep about my Total Seal problem, he blamed it on the Total Seal 2nd ring face design, said he fields many calls every week about the same problem. The Tech Rep explained their 2nd ring has a 2.0 degree angle on the face of the ring specifically to control oil.
I like the concept but may just give up on gapless 2nd's ?? Too many issues?
tpi 421 vette, I happened to call Childs & Albert earlier today about their ZGS line of gapless second rings. Spoke with a Tech Rep about my Total Seal problem, he blamed it on the Total Seal 2nd ring face design, said he fields many calls every week about the same problem. The Tech Rep explained their 2nd ring has a 2.0 degree angle on the face of the ring specifically to control oil.
I like the concept but may just give up on gapless 2nd's ?? Too many issues?
