Help with oil leak
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 6,172
Likes: 11
From: somers, ny
Help with oil leak
I have an oil leak coming from the rear freeze plug behind the cam. I'm having the tranny freshened this winter and would like to fix this leak. What is the best way to ensure this freeze plug is sealed? Sealer? what kind? procedure?
Thanks for the advise.
Thanks for the advise.
Safety Car
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 5
From: Atlantis
Cruise-In I Veteran
Wellll...... not good, not good.
Hmmmm not good, not good.
I've never tried to change THAT one with the engine still in the car.
That one isn't a real freeze/frost plug.
It's a 'real' oil seal that sits behind the cam....
Since you're going so far as to gain access to the rear of it:
Here's a good/bad/pretty smart/dumb a$$... take your pick idea;
What about accessing the front of the engine, remove the timing chain and gears and TAP THE CAMSHAFT BACK with your handy 5 lb. hammer to knock the plug out the back then clean up the hole and knock a new plug in there with a hefty bit of gorilla snot on it......
Hmmm sounds like the intake and lifters will need to be moved out of the way also. Dratzzzz.
That sounds easier than removing the engine and pulling the cam and knocking it out and replacing it. All that is tooooo much work.
No offense intended to anybosd that posted ideas but isn't anything else a 'patch job' or bandaid?
Here's the REALLY dumb question.... Are you SURE that's where it's leaking?
There's another little oil 'cup' seal at the top of the block that sits under the driver side head... it could be leaking and running oil down into that area.... just a thought.
Good luck with it.
Hmmmm not good, not good.
I've never tried to change THAT one with the engine still in the car.
That one isn't a real freeze/frost plug.
It's a 'real' oil seal that sits behind the cam....
Since you're going so far as to gain access to the rear of it:
Here's a good/bad/pretty smart/dumb a$$... take your pick idea;
What about accessing the front of the engine, remove the timing chain and gears and TAP THE CAMSHAFT BACK with your handy 5 lb. hammer to knock the plug out the back then clean up the hole and knock a new plug in there with a hefty bit of gorilla snot on it......
Hmmm sounds like the intake and lifters will need to be moved out of the way also. Dratzzzz.
That sounds easier than removing the engine and pulling the cam and knocking it out and replacing it. All that is tooooo much work.
No offense intended to anybosd that posted ideas but isn't anything else a 'patch job' or bandaid?
Here's the REALLY dumb question.... Are you SURE that's where it's leaking?
There's another little oil 'cup' seal at the top of the block that sits under the driver side head... it could be leaking and running oil down into that area.... just a thought.
Good luck with it.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
After I posted above, I found this subject addressed in the "Pit Stop", Q&A section, in the latest, February, 2005, Hot Rod Magazine. Marlan Davis cautions that the subject plug is an oddball size, 2 7/64ths". Pioneer part number, EPS78. He mentions that, "It is not uncommon to install a more widely available 2 3/32-inch plug, which slips onto the bore more easily-but also tends to leak." HE uses, Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket No. 30.
I thought it was a timely "find" so I thought I'd mention it, for what it's worth.
RACE ON!!!
I thought it was a timely "find" so I thought I'd mention it, for what it's worth.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by LD85
Can you put a hole in it and then pull it out using the hole?
Exactly! What kind of access do you have? Is the trans out? There is a body shop tool with a sheet metal screw on the end of a slide hammer, that may do the trick. That is, if it hasn't been epoxied in, as someone suggested, above.
RACE ON!!!
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Safety Car
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 5
From: Atlantis
Cruise-In I Veteran
THAT plug pretty much butts right up against the back of the camshaft.
I don't think there is ANY space to run a screw into it.
You'd still need some sort of homemade slide hammer if you DID get a
screw into it.
BTW: The cam CAN'T move FORWARD either because the cam retainer plate under the timing chain holds it at the front.
Thus as I reccomended above, pull the intake, pull the lifters up,
Pull the timing chain,etc and use the camshaft to knock the plug out the rear. Just tap on it with a brass mallet or something of that nature.
The plug will pop out the rear when you do this.
Should take about 30~45 minutes to get everything off the top.
Probably take 4 days to put it back together if you're as **** about your work as I am. EVERY little nut,bolt ans screw will have to be cleaned and painted going back together. Talk about time consuming!!!!
You "could" go ahead and pull the cam and use a cam bearing tool to knock the plug out BUT you'll have to get the radiator/condensor out of the way to pull the cam.
May as well replace the cam bearings if you go THAT far.
I'd just used the cam as a ram to knock that plug out then install a new plug in there..
Button it all back up with new gaskets and rock and roll.
I don't think there is ANY space to run a screw into it.
You'd still need some sort of homemade slide hammer if you DID get a
screw into it.
BTW: The cam CAN'T move FORWARD either because the cam retainer plate under the timing chain holds it at the front.
Thus as I reccomended above, pull the intake, pull the lifters up,
Pull the timing chain,etc and use the camshaft to knock the plug out the rear. Just tap on it with a brass mallet or something of that nature.
The plug will pop out the rear when you do this.
Should take about 30~45 minutes to get everything off the top.
Probably take 4 days to put it back together if you're as **** about your work as I am. EVERY little nut,bolt ans screw will have to be cleaned and painted going back together. Talk about time consuming!!!!
You "could" go ahead and pull the cam and use a cam bearing tool to knock the plug out BUT you'll have to get the radiator/condensor out of the way to pull the cam.
May as well replace the cam bearings if you go THAT far.
I'd just used the cam as a ram to knock that plug out then install a new plug in there..
Button it all back up with new gaskets and rock and roll.
Last edited by VetNutJim; Jan 12, 2005 at 12:45 PM.
Cruising
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
95 % of the time the oil is coming from:
1. valve covers
2. oil sender
3. oil gally plugs
4. rear main
5. rear of intake
6. Dist.O ring
7. Transmission
8. Oil cooler adapter
I have done the cam plug a few times.
Using a die-grinder and making a small groove in the old plug (not thru it). Then pry it out.
When reinstalling don't go to deep! Just even with the Block!
Clean surface and use Ultra-Grey permatex on edge of expansion plug and smoothe some to block surface, then let it cure 30 hours (don't believe the lable)
. Never had to do a second time.
Again, cam plug leak not common!
1. valve covers
2. oil sender
3. oil gally plugs
4. rear main
5. rear of intake
6. Dist.O ring
7. Transmission
8. Oil cooler adapter
I have done the cam plug a few times.
Using a die-grinder and making a small groove in the old plug (not thru it). Then pry it out.
When reinstalling don't go to deep! Just even with the Block!
Clean surface and use Ultra-Grey permatex on edge of expansion plug and smoothe some to block surface, then let it cure 30 hours (don't believe the lable)
. Never had to do a second time.Again, cam plug leak not common!
Safety Car
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 5
From: Atlantis
Cruise-In I Veteran
Now THERE'S a GREAT idea.
I like the grind a slot and pry it out method. Never used that method but it sounds REAL GOOD.
It's enough work to get the transmission out of the way.
A Dremel tool. Hmmmm, I'm filing this away to be used in the future.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,518
Likes: 19
My favorite sealant on that plug is Indian head shellac. I tap it in and wipe away excess sealer. Then I mix up a small batch of epoxy and run a bead around the edge of the plug. I also use the epoxy on the edges of the freeze plugs.
Large Impressive Member
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die
St. Jude Donor '04-'05-'06-'07
I always use red Loctite or even their green bearing and sleeve retainer on core plugs. Never, ever had one leak or come out.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 6,172
Likes: 11
From: somers, ny
This plug does not set the rear position of the cam. If fact the cam should never touch it and there should be a small amount of clearence.
Here's an update: It appears the galley plugs were leaking. It looked like the machine shop had put a generous amount of some kind of red sealer on the plugs, but that must have been from an earlier life....cause there was no sealer on the plugs themselves (just the block) and they are leaking
One of the few things i didn't check on this engine as they looked like they were well sealed. But i should have known better.....everything else i checked turned out to be wrong or messed up the first time.
Thanks for the suggestions and i'm sure glad i didn't have to mess with that freeze plug.
Here's an update: It appears the galley plugs were leaking. It looked like the machine shop had put a generous amount of some kind of red sealer on the plugs, but that must have been from an earlier life....cause there was no sealer on the plugs themselves (just the block) and they are leaking
One of the few things i didn't check on this engine as they looked like they were well sealed. But i should have known better.....everything else i checked turned out to be wrong or messed up the first time.Thanks for the suggestions and i'm sure glad i didn't have to mess with that freeze plug.
Last edited by ralph; Feb 12, 2005 at 01:51 PM.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 491
Likes: 12
From: Los Altos Hills, CA
Thanks Ralph, since rearward movement is (supposed to be) set by the cam gear, is there a possibility the cam plug in the back could be pounded in too far by an unsuspecting novice (that would be me) and unknowingly become the rearward limit? I've never been warned about this.
BTW nice catch on the oil leak.
BTW nice catch on the oil leak.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 418
Likes: 45
From: Houston Texas
I also have an oil leak on my 96 LT1 coming from the rear or behind the left (driver side) head. I've determined it is not the valve cover, oil sending unit, or the rear of the intake manifold; supposedly all the likely suspects.
VetnutJim: What's this "oil cup" thing you referred to? I don't find any reference in my manuals. Also, the oil galley plugs? Can you enlighten me?
VetnutJim: What's this "oil cup" thing you referred to? I don't find any reference in my manuals. Also, the oil galley plugs? Can you enlighten me?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 6,172
Likes: 11
From: somers, ny
Cris, i built the engine so i know the cam wasn't hitting in the back. The cam depth is set by the cam gear in the front. I'm sure the cam is close, but it doesn't hit the freeze plug in the rear. I found the leak by putting dye in the oil and using an infrared light. I could see oil conming down from the top of the back of the block and knew it wasn't the intake.
DM, the galley plugs are threaded into the rear of the block at the back of the oil galleys which feed the lifters and cam.....hence the name. They usually dont leak from the factory.....but if you've had work done to the block........obviously they are of concern
DM, the galley plugs are threaded into the rear of the block at the back of the oil galleys which feed the lifters and cam.....hence the name. They usually dont leak from the factory.....but if you've had work done to the block........obviously they are of concern
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by ralph
DM, the galley plugs are threaded into the rear of the block at the back of the oil galleys which feed the lifters and cam.....hence the name.
I once worked for a company that sold "budget" engine rebuild kits. Most if not all of the components were "good" quality OE replacement parts. I had a few complaints of galley plugs that had holes in the center and leaked. The way the plug was made, there was a hollow area inside the plug and for no discernible reason to me, a similar depression on the outside, inside where you fit the wrench. Some must have had a tolerance "stack up" that actually left a tiny hole in the center of the plug. That is something no one would ever look for, but a word to the wise, for those that do their own work.
RACE ON!!!
