I am "considering" a restoration project in the near future. I have never done anything like this before and don't quite know how to get started.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mordi

 

First, buy a car........pay twice what you think you will to get the best possible!

Second, plan on the next year or two restoring it.......then spend twice that amount of time!

Third, establish a budget for the project.......then spend twice as much!

Fourth........do it anyway!

Fifth......welcome to the insane asylum! :cheers:

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Are you considering a restoration project for entertainment or to rid yourself of excess cash? Have you definitely decided on restoring a Corvette yet, or will an Edsel work just as well?

I ask these smart aleck questions because considering a restoration project usually happens AFTER you have the car, and develops from an interest in bringing the car back to like-new condition. Once you are into a Corvette restoration, you will realize that taking on such a task for fun and entertainment is masochistic.

For an overview of what a real restoration entails, I recommend starting with "Corvette Restoration - State of The Art" by Michael Antonick. It covers the ultra-correct restoration of a 65 396 Corvette convertible by David Burroughs. You can find it at vendors that sell Corvette books.

Then, I would pick a year class that I liked, I would join the NCRS, attend some local judging meets, and sign up for observer judging. I would also buy the NCRS Technical Information Manual and Judging Guide for the year class, and become very familiar with it.

If there is a "Fact Book" by Dr. M. F. Dobbins for the model year you like, I would also buy that and read it through carefully. In short, learn everything you can about the car you are interested in owning, then begin to shop. Skip the dealers; watch your local newspaper and attend the Bloomington and Carlisle meets.

There are nearly as many ideas about "restoration" as there are people that are working on old cars. Although many consider replacement of a ragged interior and repaint as restoration, there is much more to it. I have given you the NCRS approach to restoration because, in my opinion, "restoration" means returning the vehicle to its former state, i.e. just like it left the factory. Sometimes, money becomes an object, and you have to settle for some condition short of the ideal, but everything that is "restored" on the car should be done in the spirit of returning the car to it's original condition.

Dropping in a crate motor, adding chrome plated aftermarket wheels and sidepipes, and painting the car Viper Red is NOT restoration, but there is a place this approach, and many enjoy their Corvettes in this manner.

 

Well said LOL very very dead on the money X2 or X10 you'll see. If you dont own a car yet by one that is done or dont and sent it to me :D

 

Well, you guys have certainly provided me with some things to think about!

Chuck, it appears I may have incorrectly used the word "restoration", as I have not yet considered whether or not I want to return the vehicle to the condition it was when it left the factory or merely rebuild a vehicle. Since I have never undertaken a project of this sort before , it would seem that a restoration would be a lot more challenging (and perhaps overwhelming) for a newbie. Would you agree? I do not presently have a vehicle and have not yet determined what year car I would like to work on. Are corvettes any more difficult than say an early 1970's muscle car (Camaro,442, Chevelle, etc). Are some years more desirable than others? Any thoughts?

Also, are there any clubs that specialize in this sort of thing? I would gladly offer my services as an apprentice to someone who was restoring/rebuilding a car, in exchange for the knowledge obtained. It sure would be nice to get a little experience under my belt.

Thanks,
Mordi

 

Sorry, Mord, didn't mean to intimidate or discourage you. :) It's just that one of the saddest things for me is to hear of someone selling a Corvette in boxes because they have undertaken a frame off restoration, and didn't understand the magnitude or expense of the task. I have undertaken only one frame-off restoration, and it has been in progress for years. I guess the verdict is still out on whether my Vette will be sold in boxes by my heirs.

A correct restoration is definitely more challenging, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily overwhelming for a newbie. It all depends on how long the "restoration" takes. What you need to understand is that for a newbie to do a correct restoration, it is necessary for the beginner to not only do the work, but to gain all the knowledge necessary to do the job right. As you gain knowledge, you may find that if you have been too hasty, some of the work already done is incorrect and will have to be redone.

A simple example is that there were several shades of "black" paint (flat, semi-flat, and a range of gloss finishes) that were used to finish Corvette parts: to do a "restoration" correctly, you need to question and learn exactly what shade was used on each part. Similarly, you have to learn if parts were plated zinc, zinc dichromate, black phosphate, black oxide or natural from examples long past revealing this information. You also have to learn new skills (bead blasting, spray painting, maybe welding) and buy new (expensive) tools to do this work yourself, or else farm it out to someone whose skills and work ethic is unknown. It all takes time, and therefore your progress is directly proportional to your enthusiasm for learning about your new interest and your ability to stay focused on the goal.

I am sure that rebuilding an old car to the semblance of a shiny, new custom conveyance is very satisfying for many, but for me, correct restoration is the most rewarding. It is like studying a diamond: one view is that of a beautiful stone that reflects the light with brilliance and clarity...the other view is ALL of that PLUS the careful examination of every facet to confirm its specifications to a standard. You can't examine the facets unless you know the standard. Many reading this will decide that I am totally "kooky" on this subject, but that's just the way I'm wired.

Once you get into the club standards for restoration, you will find that there are very similar requirements for "judged" cars, whether they be Camaros, Chevelles, or Corvettes. Also, since many of the same suppliers made parts for all three GM lines, you will find that the finishes on the same parts are the same. Some clubs are not as demanding as to the accuracy of the finishes, but to me, that just represents an incomplete development of the process. Corvette knowledge went through a similar evolution.

I have no experience with metal bodied restorations, but because of the similar standards, I don't expect it would be any easier to restore a Chevelle; in each case, you are trying to take the car back to a condition identical to what it was when it left the factory. Ease of restoration is much more likely to be dependent on the availability of correct NOS and reproduction parts than on the model of the car, but the availability of parts will also be determined by the popularity of the model (49-50 Dodge sedans will be TOUGH! :D ). As for the best years, in almost all cases, I would say early sixties to mid seventies when performance was in its heydey. To home in on a year class YOU like the best, you will just have to study the breed.

The restoration club for Corvettes is National Corvette Restorers Society (www.ncrs.org). There are similar clubs for Chevelles and Camaros, and I would think for other brands. Check out Hemmings Motor News; sometimes you will see references to clubs in there. Also, look in the car mags for restorers (Classic Auto Restorer?).

Best of luck in your budding interest. :D


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 7:44 AM 11/29/2001]


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 8:02 AM 11/29/2001]

 

Chuck,

Thanks for your reply.

You haven't really intimadated me or discouraged me. It is simply a matter of trying to understand and clarify the different alternatives available and which one would be most suitable for me . At this point, because I am a beginner and there is so much to learn, a correct restoration may be "to big a bite" for now and therefore I am shying away from it (but not intimidated!). Perhaps a better approach (for me) would be to find a vehicle that I like from the late 60's or early 70's (and that is drivable), rebuild it ,not worry about matching numbers, etc and enjoy it! If it works out well, I can then decide what the next step should be.

Either way,there is no doubt that a project of this sort is a considerable undertaking and it is best to know and understand what you are getting yourself into, before you commit your time, energy and $$$$$.

Thanks for pointing this out to me.

Regards,
Mordi

 

FIRST -- buy and read the reference literature. There's a ton of it out there. Do your homework and build yourself a knowledge base.

SECOND -- check out parts prices from the aftermarket providers or visit a swap meet and see what things are selling for.

THIRD -- decide whether you want to restore a car which needs restoration or spend more for a car which is in better shape and will require less of your time, money, and attention.

FOURTH -- Buy the car after deciding what you want and shopping around. Prices vary across the country. Published price guides are interesting, but not gospel. Corvettes are sold everyday for prices under those listed in the guides.

FIFTH -- Cruise and enjoy.

:)

 

I agree with that approach, but consider that you need to have a certain level of knowledge to even buy a car without getting "bit". You don't want to "not worry about matching numbers" only to pay too much for the car, and later find that it doesn't make any sense to restore it because of missing original components.

You could get lucky and pay a reasonable price for an original car, but unfortunately, the restorer car market rewards those who claim an original numbers matching vehicle and/or won't hesitate to fake one for profit.

 

Chuck

What I was trying to convey is that since this is my first attempt at this sort of thing, I would not worry about maching numbers for this vehicle. If this project works out well and I ever do another project in the future (on a different car), I could then consider a correct restoration. Hopefully, by that time, my knowledge and skill level will have advanced to the point that I could seriously consider such an endeavour. For now, my thinking is to pay a nominal amount for a "driveable" vehicle and have at it! The intention would be to familarize myself with the tools and procesees and end up with an everday driver.

I appreciate the education. I am going to get the reference materials recommended and start getting smart. Also, need to get familiar with the 1965-1973 models, as that is where my interest is (at the moment!).

Keep it comming!

Thanks,
Mordi

:D ;)

 

I would say that a Corvette restoration is relatively easy from the standpoint that most all parts are available as reproductions (if that's acceptable to your standards of restoration). That saves a lot of hunting down NOS parts and trying to find used parts in acceptable condition. Plus, I don't think any old Corvette part has ever ended up in a landfill. In other words, it seems that used parts seem pretty plentiful, especially the ones that I would consider junk. However, I've found the parts for Corvettes to be significantly more expensive than a comparable part for say, a Camaro, Chevelle, etc. I think this has to do with the need for the part vendors to amortize the tooling needed to produce the parts over the lower Corvette production volumes.

I have a friend that restores old Lincolns and the parts availability for these cars are very limited, with near zero reproduction parts available. This forces him to either find the correct NOS parts or refurbish a rough used part (or maybe even fabricate his own part). However, the parts he finds are relatively inexpensive because there is less demand for old Lincoln parts. I would consider his restorations to be more difficult than a run of the mill Corvette restoration.

Pretty much what everbody else said in this thread is true about going overbudget, underestimating the time required, and getting half way into the project and redoing stuff because you learned about or discovered a better way to do it.

Plus, I've found car restoration to be a labor of love. I don't see how anyone can restore a car correctly and make money on it unless he's getting paid to restore someone else's car. I figure that if I sold my car when its finished I'll be able to get out just about what I have invested in it with respect to $$$, but I'd never recoup my time investment.

Good Luck,

Eric

 

# 1 Join N C R S
# 2 Join A local Vette club
# 3 Read as maney books on the years you like best
# 4 Go to several shows and N C R S meets there are several on the west coast this year and the national convention is in Monterey this year
# 5 Talk too people who ar doing a car and people that have done one
# 6 Rember it will take much longer to do the job right the first time but it will be worth it when it is done
Good Luck and welcome to the best group of people around
Corvette People :chevy

 

Chuck, man I'm discouraged now. I think I'll sell my Vette and buy a VW. Here all these years I thought this was just plain old fun trying to figure all this Vette stuff out. Didn't know I was masochistic. Oh well I'm having fun every time I skin a knuckle or bang my head somewhere on the Vette. :crazy:

 

Hmmmmmm...Perhaps das Demmel Corvetteishvagen restorationish iz nicht correctish enough, ja? Mebbe ve need to zend das Numberish Matchen Politzei to inspect das Demmel Corvetteishvagen. :jester

Now, see here, Roberto: These new guys have to be tested first to see if they are really getting into this because they're masochists. We can't have any masochist wannebes in this hobby! We must tell them the most ugly version of the plain unvarnished truth. Then, if they go ahead anyway and it turns out they like it, you have done your duty. If not, then they probably couldn't handle the pain and abuse of Corvette restoration anyway, and you have saved them a ton of money, anguish, and heartbreak.

Now, we both know this is fun. Heck, I bet you crawl up under your Vette and do situps just so you can enjoy the passion of hitting your head on your Vette's soft underbody. Me, I get my kicks by moving boxes of Corvette parts from one part of my garage to another, so I can get to some other parts in boxes that I need to restore some of the parts in boxes that I just buried under the boxes of parts that I moved. :lol: :yesnod: :lol: :yesnod: :lol:

 

As usual, Chuck has given sage advice! I won't even attempt to add to his remarkably clear advice. I will say this though. Regardless of whether you decide to go with original/custom, numbers matching/anything goes, etc, buy the best car you can. Even a low mileage, garage kept, little old lady driven car will need repairs, replacements, and lots of unexpected work.

For example, my first Corvette was a VERY non-numbers matching 66 convertible. I took a mid-year expert with me and after 45 minutes of looking he suggested I walk away from the car. :eek: Hey, but it's a 66 Rally Red convertible. Well, I bought it and spent over $8000 on parts, repairs, paint, and rebuilding of every major component in the car. When it was done, I had a very reliable non-numbers matching car. Had I taken the $8000 plus the cost of the car, I could have bought a car that had been restored. Oh well. My current car is a 33000 mile 72 LT1 that still had all original hoses, shocks, etc and was very original and correct, as well as very reliable. i had still put money into, although much less than $500 total.

Gary

 

Gary, my man, you have just said what I tried to say. An example is worth a thousand words. If I were you, though, I wouldn't feel bad; the tuition for your education was expensive, but a lot more than $8000 could have been spent, and has been spent by others.

 

Guys,

I appreciate all the feedback I have received from everyone on this subject. It's great and is what this forum is all about!!

This project is going to be a learning experience for me. I don't have high hopes that the finished product will be perfect - in fact, it will more than likely be far from perfect. I will make my share of mistakes and then some! (and then some more too!!!!) That's Ok. As Chuck said, I am going to be paying for my education. Great. If what I take away from the project is to familiarize myself with techniques, processes, etc, then it will be a success. If I end up with a nice daily driver, then that's "icing on the cake".

I was planning on budgeting about $5000-$10,000 for the purchase of a vehicle and another $10,000 to get the job done. How does that sound?

Also, I would like to find a mid 60's early 70's car. Seems like most of what I be been able to find so far (on the internet) is vehicles already completed of 75-90% completed and out of that price range. Where is a good place to find a car that is both drivable and mechanically sound for my price range? Newspaper, swap meets, auctions?

Got a few books to get me going such as "Illustrated Buyers Guide - Antonick", "Black Book - Antonick" and "Restoration Guide - Porter". Should keep me in reading for a while!

Mordi

 

See, now this is where reality begins to set in when it comes to Corvettes. In my opinion, if you can only do one, Corvettes are THE CHOICE when it comes to selecting a muscle car (sic) to restore...they are the most prestigious, highest performance, longest running American automotive tradition out there. But, they were relatively expensive when new, and they are dang near rediculous now...doesn't matter if they are numbers matching or not (who's gonna tell'ya...of course, its numbers matching).

For $10K you can forget about mid sixties; you can't even buy a parts car for that. Probably early seventies as well, unless you get lucky. You may be able to find a middle to late seventies for $8K to $10K, but it's no accident that you can afford it...that sucker will be rougher than a cob.

With another $10K, you can tend to the cosmetics, and it will look like a nice Vette to the man on the street. But, if you have been unlucky enough to get one with a mongrel collection of parts (engine, transmission, frame, front clip from other year Vettes, aftermarket wheels, thunderbird seats), then you'll have $20K in an $8K car. You could do better by loading up on soon-to-be-bankrupt Enron stock.

.Yes...all of those. The kicker is that not every seller can be trusted to tell you if the car he's selling is "driveable and mechanically sound". A good starting position is to assume that every seller is a liar until you know better. Ultimately, the responsibility for determing if a car is mechanically sound and worth the money he is asking is entirely yours.

Read your local classifieds every morning...it's amazing what shows up every now and then. Like others have said, join the NCRS, both the national and your local chapter. Keep your ears open for members that want to sell. Go to Bloominton and Corvettes at Carlisle meets, and check out the auctions, the "corrals" and the "for sale signs". Watch the prices, and compare to the quality of the car (this implies using accrued knowledge), and you will be begin to see a concensus. As Gary said, if you find something you are interested in, take an experienced NCRS judge type along with you to look at the car. I didn't do this, but was very lucky.

Forget about dealers, ebay, or Hemmings for your first car; perhaps even for forever. Be patient as Job, and WAIT until the right car with the right price comes along. Meantime, study all the books you can lay your hands on. Two of your books are the ones I started with, and by that time, I at least knew enough to ask what a "CE" block was and where the casting numbers should be. Study the cars you like and their prices when they are for sale, and don't make a decision without knowledgeable help

 

Jawohl Mein Herr haben ein Corvetten ist sehr gut.

:yesnod:

Your right though Chuck. It may be frustrating at times, but the satisfaction when something is done is great. Besides what better excuse to keep me from doing chores around the house? Sorry dear, I have to nap under the Vette now. :sleep: