Well said John!
:yesnod:

 

I certainly agree with this revised policy that NCRS has applied for the last few years; no disagreement. In my mind, there is a lot more common sense in THIS policy than paying $250 for an original document or an old dry-rotted spare tire. In these cases, if you don't have the originals (or real good facsimile thereof) you will lose a few judging points. It's simply a matter of where you decide to expend your surplus judging points above the Top Flight level; make a cost/benefit analysis and decide.

I had always planned to paint my restored car with BC/CC urethane because of its unquestioned durability. The first few years I was a member, the NCRS objective was to insure that BC/CC was NOT USED on restored Corvettes. As the years have passed, acrylic lacquer not only became a totally different formulation from the original lacquer, but in the last couple of years, major manufacturers have nearly stopped making it altogether; it has become almost impossible to find.

Rather than continue to beat a "dead horse", NCRS made a 180 degree turn to allow modern finishes if they can be made to "appear" as lacquer. Further, the NCRS almost encouraged the use of urethane finishes by presenting technical sessions at national conventions specifically for the education of members in making modern finishes "appear" as lacquer.

At the same time, I cannot endorse the position that vendors should mass produce exact duplicates of original documents, that are undetectable from the originals by ANYONE, in order to "appear" exactly like the original for a few judging points. Now, if you have the skills to make a perfect reproduction yourself, I don't see anything wrong with that; in fact, there are some items that I may try to replicate myself. If I am successful; fine. If not, well, I gave it the old college try. If the vendors mass produce such documents, the "counterfeits" will flood the document market, and there will effectively be no more "original" documents. You can get document reproductions now that are identical except for one little additional line "Reprinted From The Original". If that one little line of text is bothering you, then your objective is to fool somebody...no, not somebody, but everybody.

In the case of repro parts, I know of no case where repro parts cannot be detected if you are well enough educated about the originals and have well-developed powers of observation. In my opinion, there ARE no perfect reproduction parts. In the case of documents, the situation is a little different; thanks to technology, the original documents can be photocopied onto the correct card stock, and are undetectable by most experts. Now, we are reduced to such devices as "musty smell" to separate the sheep from the goats.

I don't take this position because I am in the collector documents business and fear an impact on my wallet. I happen to own several original documents that came with my car, and I expect many of us are in that position. I am not overly concerned that my documents will be devalued excessively by such activity, because I would never separate the documents from the car simply to fatten my wallet.

I feel this way because it is the right thing to do; people who own original documents will get hurt by such actions, and if you think it through, all of us in the hobby will feel some impact when it has run its full course. More opportunity for fraud and deceipt will be provided for those so inclined, and to me, this is the worst result. It is not worth saving a few bucks on an original document just to aggravate negative conditions that already exist in the hobby. If it is THAT important to you, then I think you are kidding yourself...it just galling to you that this individual HAS this "worthless" piece of paper, is attempting to rob you, and you are unwilling to swallow that pride and fork over the $250.

My decision was to walk away...I didn't pay the $250, but then it isn't really galling me that I don't own the original either. And that is all I know about that. :D

 

Chuck, we are probably beating a dead horse, but what the heck, it isn't like there is much other posting anyway.

The question is, how can we keep demanding better and better repro parts in one breath and expect them not to devalue original parts in the other. It is not possible, It is supply and demand. We now have jig-asembled, press-molded front end assy's that are beautiful quality. We only have them because the original parts are too expensive and the hand laid parts are easily identified as incorrect.

If someone can produce a great repro of a engine break-in card and sell it for a reasonable price then I will buy it, and I see nothing wrong with that as long as he does not represent it as original. There will always be someone who is willing to lie about a cars originality in order to make money but I still think it is unrealistic to place the blame at the feet of the vendors. Do we say that as long as they make crap it is okay but once the parts get too good then they need to quit! I still say that leaving the "reprinted from original" makes no more sense than stamping "REPRO" on any other part! There may be some legal implications that drove this, but I cannot imagine that this is the case.

There are a lot of people which have an almost unlimited supply of money and are willing to pay the kind of money that is necessary to aquire such items, but I am not one of them. I have neither the money or the ego that requires the collection of such Items, and if the production of quality items reduces the value of the originals then so be it! People who collect such items are speculators, no less than the Hunt brothers were when they tried to corner the market on silver! If they can turn a profit on their investments, more power to them, but don't come crying when a quality repro prevents their investment from doubling in a few years.

We ask vendors to recreate the proper line pattern on hoses, head marking on bolts, fabric patterns for seats, ect. I just cannot see the difference for the life of me. Am I trying to fool someone? You bet your butt I am! I am doing my best to fool the judjes to beleive that an item appears as if it is original, this is the name of the game we play in flight judging!
Make no mistake about it this IS a game and a lot of people enjoy playing it just as some enjoy playing softball, but for some it is a business and an investment, and to tell someone they can't play the way they want becaust it will endanger someone's investment, is beyond my comprehension.

If GM wishes to enforce it's copy rights under the law then I would say that that is understandable, and Gm would probably only do so if money were to be made. But for the repro market to be limited because of the value of some original parts owned by parties which had no hand in the production of the parts is something that I cannot understand.

I promise that this is the last I will say on this issue, unless of course, you stir me up again!!!
:lol:


[Modified by John McGraw, 5:55 PM 9/10/2002]

 

No more stirring from me, John, I am talked out on this subject.

Both of us have made some good points, but the irony is that neither of us is probably going to be in a position to change the outcome of this issue...unless, of course, it is on a personal basis and we vote with our feet and our money. ;) :D :D :D

 

This was a really great thread, guys! :cheers:

One point which was only lightly touched upon it this: there is a very limited market for any such items. Whether it's engine cards or seat covers or goose necks, there are not a huge number of people actively seeking to purchase the parts, whether original or repro.

Does quality repro parts or documents devalue original parts? Maybe, maybe not. For those with the cash and desire for originality, probably not. They will pay whatever it takes to get what they want- damn the cannons! To those of us without unlimited budgets (ie: the majority) quality repro parts at reasonable prices make the difference between buying and doing without.

 

Without getting into the right or wrong of it all, it depends on what your intended purpose is for the vehicle. Recognize that the same individual may have cars in different categories...driver, racer, show, etc., and it does not imply Multiple Personality Disorder.

If you own a Corvette that you drive a lot and enjoy, and if it is not a judged, restored car (not neccesarlily a trailer queen, there is a middle ground), you are primarily interested in functional parts that will keep the car running. You may want the car to look original to the casual observer, but not necessarily to be perfect in originality. Functional replacement parts from auto supply stores will work and they are relatively cheap; they just don't have the "AC" logo in the right place or whatever. Nor would the owner think that it was necessary for this purpose.

In most instances, but not always, cars in this category will have some fundamental defects (only to the knowledgable hobbyist, e.g. non-orignal drivetrain numbers) that prevent them from ever having high value. An individual may also chose to drive his original, restored car a lot, and just replace the parts as they fail following the restorer's formula below to maintain it's value; it's an individual choice.

On the other hand, if you are the perfectionist restorer (John McGraw and I fit in this camp), and you have brought one back from the abyss, your very first choice is probably going to be original issue NOS parts. You may drive it some, probably not a lot, and maybe not a all (shudder! The dreaded trailer queen).

If original issue NOS parts don't exist or they are prohibitively expensive (do the cost/benefit analysis), then guys in this class are going to examine GM replacement parts to see if they are identical to the original parts. If GM replacement parts aren't available or they are totally changed from the originals, then you are going to study the repros to determine if they are virtually identical to the original part. If only poor repros exist, then you are going to seek to restore a used part or the original part. If that can't be done, then you are going to see if you can make one or have one made. The first two or three alternatives may switch positions depending on availability, price, and if you are talking about hard parts or soft parts.

My attitude on documents falls more into the "driver" category, even for a judged car. Documents are not essential in my mind; few casual observers have any idea anything existed beyond the owner's manual, and I refuse to be highjacked for big bucks in order to simply say "Well, if the original owner HAD saved the documents, then they would look just like these!" If you have them, that's great, you get a few more judging points. If you don't have them, man, you are not alone...few people thought they were important when the car was new, let alone thirty-forty years later.


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 9:57 AM 9/11/2002]