I am trying to get the few glove box items that I need for my 60 and bought a engine break-in card from one of the larger vendors. Imagine my surprise when I saw that the card had "reprinted from the original" printed across the top! why would someone go to all the trouble of reproducing the card and then make it so obvious that it was not original? does anyone know of a source for one without this verbage or is this a job for my scanner and color printer?
:mad

 

That sorta defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Your scanner and colour printer will allow you to reproduce without the stupid lettering but do you have appropriate 'card stock' paper?


[Modified by Mac, 8:49 PM 9/8/2002]

 

Mac, I will have to go looking for the correct grade of manilla card stock. This of course, assumes that the card is correct in all other respects!
:seeya

 

I still can't believe they would print 'reproduction' across the top. That so defeats the purpose! Unless they were worried GM might object to their reproduction or something?

 

If you guys saw all the idiots selling reproduced and copied Corvette paper items as originals you would be amazed. As a Corvette hobbyist and paperwork collector I believe the "Reprinted" phrase needs to be on all items copied from original items, including the pieces done with a scanner at home. These "home made" pieces get into the hands of others and they think they are worth a fortune and ir ruining the paperwork part of the hobby. Lets not add to the confusion.

 

Dave, While I understand what you are saying, our whole purpose in restoration is to make a particular item look as an original would. If a part is indistinguishable from original then what difference does it make wether it is original or not? The issue of people overpaying for "original" parts is a different matter, this is driven by too much money and too little knowledge!
If someone produces a perfect repro then the supply will cause the price to go down, but people asking astronomical prices for junk will continue forever. "Let the buyer beware", a phrase which has been with us since the first Roman tried to sell another roman a NOS set of chariot hubcaps!
If we follow your logic we should make Al Knoch stamp Repro into his very fine reproduction seat covers! We, the customer have constantly clamored for better and better repro parts, and we should appreciate a vendor when he offers them. I see no reason for this card being printed with this verbage other than stupidity!
:seeya


[Modified by John McGraw, 9:54 AM 9/9/2002]

 

No one ever accused the Federal government of being ingenius, but the reason is the same as the one that causes the Feds to frown on you using your Xerox machine to make exact copies of Andrew Jackson's picture from the original. The more realistic the copy, the deeper in doo you are.

Perhaps the reprinters could do a better job of concealing the "mark" that permits identification and making it less obtrusive. They could maybe use a small circle or triangle in some area of the document that cannot be "weathered" away.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the printer is required by law to put those words on the reprinted document. Otherwise, why would they do it? It's just more work for them, because they have to set up another line of text that wasn't on the original document. They gain nothing from it except maybe staying out of jail or avoiding fines.


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 9:48 AM 9/9/2002]

 

John, My gripe here is the lack of knowledge people have about paper items. As bad as it is w/ parts it is far worse w/ paper. I have studied all sorts of original and reproduced(sometimes I call it reissue) and often it is difficult to tell the difference even when both are side by side. I just went through that w/ a fellow NCRS member when comparing early Restorer magazine originals and early reproductions. It was hard to tell the difference.When it is tough for me, one can only imagine how tough it is for a hobbyist w/ lots of money and no knowledge.
Your Al Knock example is not the same. His items are known reproductions as the are virtually no originals available anywhere. As it relates to other items most reproductions can be detected vs. an original by the knowledgeable buyer, and the "buyer beware" comes into play.
With the high prices in place on some rare paper items I believe we need to be extremely careful about reproducing any of it as it eventually will fall into the hands of someone looking to make a profit. I had a fellow NCRS member sell me several paper items which he swore were originals. Turned out they were photocopies. When I challenged him he was indignant. Buyer Beware. Just $.02 worth

 

Dave, I know exactly what you are talking about. This hobby is filled full of people who will tell you whatever is nedded to make a sale! On the other hand, my thoughts are that a hobbyist who is contemplating buying such items without educating themselves about the subtle differences is just looking to be taken, and we cannot protect them from themselves!
I would disagree that the seatcover analogy is not valid, once installed, it would be almost impossible to tell a new set of waffle pattern 57 seat covers from a 40+ yr old original. I personally do not see the difference between repainting a car to look original, putting new seat covers on that look original, or putting a card in the glovebox that looks original. If this is wrong then our whole concept of flight judging and corvette restoration is invalid. If only truly original peices are allowed then we are down to Bowtie cars only! This same argument comes up anytime the subject of block restamping comes up.
I am convinced that any item can be reproduced flawlessly if a person is willing to put forth the time and effort, and that paper items are probably the easiest to reproduce due to the digital imaging equipment available today. They are already redesigning the $20 bill after only 4 years due to the new technology that allows reproduction! My thoughts are that I don't care whether the card is original or reproduction as long as it will look original. I certainly do not plan to ever claim that the card is original for resale purposes, no more than I would ever claim the paint on my 60 is original, and I think trying to control peoples future actions by limiting what can be produced is not logical.
While I can see the argument that the reproduction of flawless reproduction items would without a doubt lower the value of "original" items, that is of little concern to me. If I were a dealer in nothing but "original" parts, I would probably not like it if someone produced an item that instantly de-valued my items, but as a restorer I would rejoice that a "correct" part was finally available at a reasonable price that would take no point deducts. I guess it all just depends which side of the fence you are on. I will now climb down off my soap box!
:seeya :seeya


[Modified by John McGraw, 12:26 PM 9/9/2002]

 

John, I certainally understand your point of view. I get very frustrated when someone buys a radio tag for a 67 for $250 thinking it was original and only finds out it is a reproduction after a paperwork specialtist sees it. Paperwork is much more difficult to verify than most Corvette items as there is so few original pieces to learn from and the reproduction pieces are close in quality. The good thing is that one cannot reproduce aging paper, musty smell etc. Certainally the hobby would be at a standstill without reproduction items of any sort. It kills me to see so many paperwork buyers with so little experience getting taken. Now that we have solved the reproduction issue, I thank you for sharing your view and completely respect it. regards

 

Intelligent and articulate arguments from both parties! I love it!! :cheers:

If reproduction is permitted and encouraged, than the requirement to 'flaw' the reproductions, regardless of whether it is paperwork or seat covers, doesn't make sense, federal laws aside. Copyright protections are in place for a reason but I suspect none of these items really qualify.

Originals will always carry a premium pricetag but some of the prices being charged for simple items are outrageous and the reason for this is simple- education. Some buyers don't make the enquiries necessary to estabish what fair market value is for their purchases. Other buyers know the difference but figure the premium price is investment for future return.

As John stated, the sellers of originals might not like quality reproductions cutting down the prices, but, looking at the 'big picture' these items are just paper, metal, vinyl or leather. Perhaps the prices need to come down.

 

Hmmmm...It's "Dejavue All Over Again"...It's the block restamping question dressed up in a new costume! :D :D

No, Macster, the outrageous prices are due to SCARCITY. If the supply of originals wasn't limited, or if nobody wanted them, then the value (price) would be low.

Let's say that you were skilled enough to make PERFECT reproduction of the Mona Lisa, or a Renoir, Latrec, whatever. Absolutely perfect...no one, not even the best art experts, could tell the original from your copy. Well, if you did it for your own pleasure and hung it on your wall, that's cool, no problem with that.

But, let's say you sold this painting for next to nothing, the cost of the materials. Now, the new owner is dishonest; he sees the potential for a lot of profit, and attempts to sell the painting as an original...uh oh, now we are talking big time fraud and law enforcement is going to be very interested in him AND MAYBE YOU. Since you didn't profit from his dishonesty, do you want to serve time with him? It may only be $250 instead of $2.5 million, but the principle is the same.

Moral: If you want to enjoy the Mona Lisa but you can't afford the dough; I guess you'll just have to cheap out and go for the 'Ho. (Only kidding ya John; jus' gettin' ya back fer thet Aggie joke :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

 

Agreed, to a point. An educated consumer would not pay more than the product is worth.
Disagreed. You're comparing apples to potatoes. The paintings of an acknowledged master have value because they are, from the onset, one of a kind and unique in every way. That is the intrinsic source of their value. Engine breakin cards were mass produced and given away. They were worth next to nothing and in no way unique. To try to say they're worth more because almost everyone threw them away (because they were worthless) doesn't turn them into unique works of art. Another bunch of perfectly mass reproduced cards does little to affect their intrinsic value because they were never unique. As I said, originals will always hold a premium value but that value should never be outragous. If something happened to make it unique (ie: signed by Zora) that act would be what gave the card enhanced. Otherwise, they're just paper and ink.
Disagree. The fraud would be the seller misrepresenting the card as original. The value of the card remains the same; it's just mass produced paper and ink. The person who reproduces the card does not represent it as being original. Law enforcement wouldn't be interested unless the seller took steps to establish the acticle as original.

Chuckles, I have a deed for a very large bridge, some people call it the Golden Gate, you may have heard of it. If you're willing to buy my deed for an outragous price, have I committed a fraud? Not unless I take steps to establish to you that my deed is authentic. It is those steps which establish the 'actus rhea' (loose translation- guilty actions) of the offence. The deed is just paper and ink. Without those steps, no offence, otherwise known as "let the buyer beware" or as someone else put it "there's an azz for every seat!"

 

Macster, it was a joke, man...Don't be gettin' all "actus rhea" on me (try that Imodium AD, they say it's really good).

I don't deny that the prices on some of this paper is "outrageous".

I have also been in the same position as John; I shopped the documents one year at Carlisle (Bloomington?, I can't remember). I had seen this guy's ads, and looked over his stuff (No, it wasn't Dave.). After I talked with him awhile, I walked away feeling like I needed a shower, and I hadn't even bought anything.

You say that this material was worthless and people threw it away; that may be true, but the only reason that he can charge $250 for one NOW is that everyone that had one THEN threw them away. Well, he picked them up, now he has them, you need one and don't have one, and he can now name his price. Unfair??!! No, I don't think so. Just be grateful he doesn't own the franchise on air.

If his prices are unreasonable, he doesn't sell any, it's just that simple. If he doesn't sell any, he decides to reduce his prices until the market decides they are fair, or he will be keeping them until hell freezes over. It's just that simple; novel concept...called a free market society.

Now, the tricky part starts...each individual has to make that decision for himself depending on his knowledge of the product, his desire to have it, and the amount of expendable income he has to spend on such trinkets. In my case, I walked away because I realized it wasn't as important to me as it was to others willing to pay the price.

Having done that, there is no point to bitching about the outcome or saying its someone else's fault because they are not cheaper...What IS, IS. Further, I cannot endorse flooding the market (eventhough I am not in the market in any way) with counterfeits just so I can save a few bucks on an original document. Even though some of the people that sell this stuff appear to be scondrels (present company excepted :D ), they are at least selling the real deal if people are ready to pay the price. The real SCONDRELS are those individuals that have been empowered by those with the capabilities to make good counterfeits, and are then using those counterfeits to prey on the ignorance of others.

 

Chuck, No offense taken. However I think I will pass on the Mona Lisa and go for the "Justification For Higher Education" print at the mall complete with Led tailights on the corvette! I am a real simple guy who simply likes what he likes and not because it has some collectible value, so just give me a good quality repro that won't cost me an arm and a leg and not loose points at judging and leave the high dollar stuff for the collectors. Different strokes for different folks, and I sure don't knock people who collect rare items!
Ya see Chuck, just 'cause I live in Austin don't make me a tea sipper, I am from out there in the West Texas desert, but I just couldn't take it nomore!
:seeya

 

I know what you mean, John, but you can't be saying that you want your C1 judges so unsophisticated that they can't even recognize a repro when they see one...in the long run, it will only cheapen your accomplishment. :D

No, just do the best you can with what you got...having the repro at least demonstrates that you know it should have the card, and it will serve as a good representative for the historically minded. The deduct is probably small even if the card is completely absent.

Actually, most of the Texas/Texas A&M rivalry has always been all in fun for those mature enough to understand the kidding. The folks at UT demonstrated genuine sympathy and compassion at Texas A&M's darkest hour, and we will never forget that kindness.

After some inner conflict, I am trying to get back to GOD's Green Land myself (a little intercessory prayer for me may help if you are so inclined). Always when I go back east to Central Texas, or beyond, I am astounded by this incredible waste of water that is required to turn everything GREEN! :D

 

Na Chuck, I just want to create a repro that can't be told without carbon dating! :lol:


The only bad thing about moving here or further east is you won't be cooling you garage with a swamp cooler, but it is nice having trees and grass!
:seeya

 

Does that mean you don't want my deed to the Golden Gate?:D

 

Tell me about it, partner, I was born and raised 90 miles east of Austin.

The old folks used to try and use those ole swamp coolers...called 'em "win'der fans". It was the only way in the world you could take a shower without the water running on you, and still feel filthy.

Of course, back in those days, nobody had refrigerated air...had no idea what it was to have airconditioning. Only the movie theatre and the drug store had airconditioning. Some of us were dang glad to have a kerosene heater to huddle around in the wintertime. Global warming was certainly not a concern to us back in those days.

I don't know who started that swamp cooler idea over there, but it was a really dumb idea. Many years later, I learned that there is no way to get evaporative cooling if the air was already saturated with water. :D

 

The basic issue is that the Flight Judging system is based on the premise that points are credited on the basis not of whether a given item is "original", but whether it "appears" as if it could have been original. "Appears" is the key word here (except in Bowtie judging, where everything must indeed be "original"). If your entire life's priority is to have your car a 4-star or 5-star Bowtie and leave it that way, I guess I wouldn't quibble with spending $250 for an "original" paper tag, although I think that borders on insanity; most folks just want a good repro that "appears" as if it could have been original so it gets the points allocated to it in Flight Judging, without paying a ridiculous price for it. The "graying" of owners on the judging field is immediately apparent if you look around, as a result of availabillity of disposable income to restore Corvettes to meet judging requirements; if the Flight Judging criteria was only "original", the judging field would be empty, and nobody under 50 would be anywhere in sight.