Porsche Owners Trading Up To a C7?
02-22-2013, 02:32 PM
#241
#4 - But I know you and Guibo write in riddles and maybe that is the source of your finances?
#5 - Turns out I don't really know my finances and I was thinking you could help me with that?
Last edited by Telepierre; 02-22-2013 at 02:47 PM.
02-22-2013, 03:49 PM
#242
I drove during a Corvette/Viper track day at Hockenheim and tons of laps at FranciaCorte in Italy. My 4 laps in the C5 were the best. In all of those, the drivers of the other cars weren't driving to "feel" how the car cornered (as you like to do), they were there to compete..., if you disagree, ok, but it will certainly prove your inexperience at such things.
Which is the conclusion reached by some British mags testing the recent crop of supercars (599 GTO, Aventador, 458, MP4-12C): you can only extract maybe 4/10ths to 7/10ths out of any of these cars on the road, made abundantly clear by the mere fact that most of us don't live in a vaccuum and must share the roads with others (some of whom are in a position to issue tickets and impound vehicles). If one car in test was faster than another, it wasn't because of engineering prowess; it was because that journalist was more reckless than the next.
I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to find videos of lesser cars passing Corvettes on Hockenheim. So what of it?
Let me put it another way: Suppose Kia made a car that looks like a box (or even worse, an old Corolla
), made it in only one color (puke green), made a device to coddle you in such a way that you would never feel the accelerative forces, the braking forces, the lateral cornering forces, that totally isolated you from the sound of the engine (the AM radio pipes in Kenny G instead), isolated the feel of the road, and provided with an automatic, took the task of shifting and blipping the throttle totally out of your hands. Instead of a panoramic view of the road/track ahead, you would observe everything through a monitor. Instead of the sweet smell of leather and burnt hydrocarbons, the car emits the aroma of a NYC dumpster mixed with bovine flatulence. Let's say this car, in the hands of Kia's hired expert F1 driver, could lap the 'Ring 80 seconds faster than a Ferrari, or the new C7 (which we know employs none of this). Would you honestly pick this new car over the Ferrari or C7? 80 seconds is a long, long time and I'm sure you could learn to love Kenny G...Which begs another question: If you love driving so much, why are you in such a hurry to get it over with?
And all this talk about test driving a Corvette in Germany. WTF is the point of test driving a car if all you need to know about a car is revealed within its stat sheet? I made a list of prices when these cars were sold at the very same time some years ago:
Germany
997S: 86.949,00 EUR inkl. MwSt. (+8.75%)
Z06: 79,950 Euros inkl. MwSt
Even after taxes, the Z06 is the faster car for the least amount of money.
02-22-2013, 04:01 PM
#243
02-22-2013, 06:09 PM
#245
Drifting
And all of these cars were bone stock? Unless you kept an inventory log of what was under the hood, in the wheel wells, and what rubber each car wore (which I highly doubt you did), then that track experience accounts for squat. I'm still not seeing anything that approaches even 1% of your time spent driving, correct? And people gathering at Hockenheim...I'm guessing that's not even .001% of the driving population of Germany. Does that sound about right? Tell me again why so many Corvette buyers choose convertibles with automatic transmissions.
You're right, it's not strictly enforced. Which means there will be plenty of evidence in deciding who was at fault in a "racing incident" that takes place on a public toll road. Knowing the cost of legal fees, cost to the 'Ring for their down time (they don't do repairs of guardrails for free either), and cost it would take to repair their cars, I would say there is plenty of evidence to suggest these guys weren't really racing as you claim. It could just mean they are less reckless than you.
Which is the conclusion reached by some British mags testing the recent crop of supercars (599 GTO, Aventador, 458, MP4-12C): you can only extract maybe 4/10ths to 7/10ths out of any of these cars on the road, made abundantly clear by the mere fact that most of us don't live in a vaccuum and must share the roads with others (some of whom are in a position to issue tickets and impound vehicles). If one car in test was faster than another, it wasn't because of engineering prowess; it was because that journalist was more reckless than the next.
I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to find videos of lesser cars passing Corvettes on Hockenheim. So what of it?
Why is it BS? They could have bought a Corvette, but did not. But your own statement supports me:
Let me put it another way: Suppose Kia made a car that looks like a box (or even worse, an old Corolla), made it in only one color (puke green), made a device to coddle you in such a way that you would never feel the accelerative forces, the braking forces, the lateral cornering forces, that totally isolated you from the sound of the engine (the AM radio pipes in Kenny G instead), isolated the feel of the road, and provided with an automatic, took the task of shifting and blipping the throttle totally out of your hands. Instead of a panoramic view of the road/track ahead, you would observe everything through a monitor. Instead of the sweet smell of leather and burnt hydrocarbons, the car emits the aroma of a NYC dumpster mixed with bovine flatulence. Let's say this car, in the hands of Kia's hired expert F1 driver, could lap the 'Ring 80 seconds faster than a Ferrari, or the new C7 (which we know employs none of this). Would you honestly pick this new car over the Ferrari or C7? 80 seconds is a long, long time and I'm sure you could learn to love Kenny G...
Which begs another question: If you love driving so much, why are you in such a hurry to get it over with?
And all this talk about test driving a Corvette in Germany. WTF is the point of test driving a car if all you need to know about a car is revealed within its stat sheet? I made a list of prices when these cars were sold at the very same time some years ago:
Germany
997S: 86.949,00 EUR inkl. MwSt. (+8.75%)
Z06: 79,950 Euros inkl. MwSt
Even after taxes, the Z06 is the faster car for the least amount of money.
You're right, it's not strictly enforced. Which means there will be plenty of evidence in deciding who was at fault in a "racing incident" that takes place on a public toll road. Knowing the cost of legal fees, cost to the 'Ring for their down time (they don't do repairs of guardrails for free either), and cost it would take to repair their cars, I would say there is plenty of evidence to suggest these guys weren't really racing as you claim. It could just mean they are less reckless than you.
Which is the conclusion reached by some British mags testing the recent crop of supercars (599 GTO, Aventador, 458, MP4-12C): you can only extract maybe 4/10ths to 7/10ths out of any of these cars on the road, made abundantly clear by the mere fact that most of us don't live in a vaccuum and must share the roads with others (some of whom are in a position to issue tickets and impound vehicles). If one car in test was faster than another, it wasn't because of engineering prowess; it was because that journalist was more reckless than the next.
I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to find videos of lesser cars passing Corvettes on Hockenheim. So what of it?
Why is it BS? They could have bought a Corvette, but did not. But your own statement supports me:
Let me put it another way: Suppose Kia made a car that looks like a box (or even worse, an old Corolla
), made it in only one color (puke green), made a device to coddle you in such a way that you would never feel the accelerative forces, the braking forces, the lateral cornering forces, that totally isolated you from the sound of the engine (the AM radio pipes in Kenny G instead), isolated the feel of the road, and provided with an automatic, took the task of shifting and blipping the throttle totally out of your hands. Instead of a panoramic view of the road/track ahead, you would observe everything through a monitor. Instead of the sweet smell of leather and burnt hydrocarbons, the car emits the aroma of a NYC dumpster mixed with bovine flatulence. Let's say this car, in the hands of Kia's hired expert F1 driver, could lap the 'Ring 80 seconds faster than a Ferrari, or the new C7 (which we know employs none of this). Would you honestly pick this new car over the Ferrari or C7? 80 seconds is a long, long time and I'm sure you could learn to love Kenny G...Which begs another question: If you love driving so much, why are you in such a hurry to get it over with?
And all this talk about test driving a Corvette in Germany. WTF is the point of test driving a car if all you need to know about a car is revealed within its stat sheet? I made a list of prices when these cars were sold at the very same time some years ago:
Germany
997S: 86.949,00 EUR inkl. MwSt. (+8.75%)
Z06: 79,950 Euros inkl. MwSt
Even after taxes, the Z06 is the faster car for the least amount of money.
Last edited by ParisTNDude; 02-22-2013 at 06:12 PM.
02-22-2013, 07:03 PM
#246
Race Director
Wow! Just trying to find your point in all the jibberish you're babbling. What does 1% of my driving time have to do with anything and the cost of a Vette in Germany???? And "test driving a Corvette in Germany" I didn't say a word about test driving. Obviously, you have no experience at any of this and the more you babble, makes you sound a whole lot like a troll. People buy Corvette convertibles because they're the coolest, fastest, convertibles made anywhere in the world....oh, and they're made in the good ole USA.
The guy could start a fish farm with all the red herrings he throws out there.
There was a fun thread in here at some point. I got a kick out of the very concept of Posche owners trading "up" to a C7
Of course, MSRP notwithstanding, maybe 98% of those who decide to make the switch (10's? 100's? 1,000's?) would be -- what do you think?
02-22-2013, 09:26 PM
#247
Wow! Just trying to find your point in all the jibberish you're babbling. What does 1% of my driving time have to do with anything and the cost of a Vette in Germany???? And "test driving a Corvette in Germany" I didn't say a word about test driving. Obviously, you have no experience at any of this and the more you babble, makes you sound a whole lot like a troll. People buy Corvette convertibles because they're the coolest, fastest, convertibles made anywhere in the world....oh, and they're made in the good ole USA.
Here's what the 1% (or actually more like .001%) has to do with this conversation: You derive pleasure and satisfaction in only those rarest of instances (1%) where you are doing 10/10ths on a road or track where you come upon another vehicle. The number of people like you is maybe .01% of the population. This represents an incredibly small portion of the buying public, and an incredibly small portion of their actual driving habits. Tadge Juechter had it right when he said that steering sensitivity matters (despite your claim that it doesn't): the figures found in stat sheets are the result of marketing, just for bragging rights. It's not for how people actually use these cars (ignoring for a moment that .001%). It's for guys who like to look over into the next urinal to check out another dude's junk (just so long as the next guy isn't an NBA baller type, because god knows he might go home and off himself in disgrace).
You derive that satisfaction from an incredibly small portion of the time that it takes in driving, and it depends solely on the presence of other cars. If there's no one around, you derive no pleasure from your car. (Your silence on that hypothetical Kia speaks volumes, BTW.) Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
Fastest convertible? It's still slower than the Corvette coupe and max performance is what you claimed was all important in a performance car, right? Guess you've never heard of a Zonda Roadster, or any number of other very fast convertibles (458, MP4, Aventador). But I agree: Some people will buy a Corvette because it is a Corvette and/or made in America. It is an iconic design and an important part of America's motoring heritage. This is largely a subjective, emotional trait. It has squat to do with how marginally faster it is than some other car at 10/10ths on closed circuits that only .00000001% (if that) of the driving population will ever face. (I'm talking about professional manufacturer drivers here.)
All this obsession with track performance, mid-engine placement, and yes even convertibles brings up a pretty decent editorial from Evo Magazine. See if this guy is totally off-base, and tell me that the Corvette team is silly for wanting to improve interior quality and subjective driving involvement with the C7, and benchmarking against the Europeans in the process.
Last edited by Guibo; 02-22-2013 at 09:29 PM.
02-22-2013, 09:50 PM
#248
Didn't throw any red herrings out there. Just questions that he failed to answer. Like how he is so omniscient to know exactly what other drivers feel about their cars, yet he tells me he feels no disappointment when a measley FIAT passes him.
02-23-2013, 12:51 AM
#249
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2002
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Here's what the 1% (or actually more like .001%) has to do with this conversation: You derive pleasure and satisfaction in only those rarest of instances (1%) where you are doing 10/10ths on a road or track where you come upon another vehicle. The number of people like you is maybe .01% of the population. This represents an incredibly small portion of the buying public, and an incredibly small portion of their actual driving habits. Tadge Juechter had it right when he said that steering sensitivity matters (despite your claim that it doesn't): the figures found in stat sheets are the result of marketing, just for bragging rights. It's not for how people actually use these cars (ignoring for a moment that .001%). It's for guys who like to look over into the next urinal to check out another dude's junk (just so long as the next guy isn't an NBA baller type, because god knows he might go home and off himself in disgrace).
You derive that satisfaction from an incredibly small portion of the time that it takes in driving, and it depends solely on the presence of other cars. If there's no one around, you derive no pleasure from your car. (Your silence on that hypothetical Kia speaks volumes, BTW.) Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
Fastest convertible? It's still slower than the Corvette coupe and max performance is what you claimed was all important in a performance car, right? Guess you've never heard of a Zonda Roadster, or any number of other very fast convertibles (458, MP4, Aventador). But I agree: Some people will buy a Corvette because it is a Corvette and/or made in America. It is an iconic design and an important part of America's motoring heritage. This is largely a subjective, emotional trait. It has squat to do with how marginally faster it is than some other car at 10/10ths on closed circuits that only .00000001% (if that) of the driving population will ever face. (I'm talking about professional manufacturer drivers here.)
You derive that satisfaction from an incredibly small portion of the time that it takes in driving, and it depends solely on the presence of other cars. If there's no one around, you derive no pleasure from your car. (Your silence on that hypothetical Kia speaks volumes, BTW.) Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
Fastest convertible? It's still slower than the Corvette coupe and max performance is what you claimed was all important in a performance car, right? Guess you've never heard of a Zonda Roadster, or any number of other very fast convertibles (458, MP4, Aventador). But I agree: Some people will buy a Corvette because it is a Corvette and/or made in America. It is an iconic design and an important part of America's motoring heritage. This is largely a subjective, emotional trait. It has squat to do with how marginally faster it is than some other car at 10/10ths on closed circuits that only .00000001% (if that) of the driving population will ever face. (I'm talking about professional manufacturer drivers here.)
02-23-2013, 12:31 PM
#250
Race Director
Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
And this is typical of what makes you and your buddy so aggravating. That $60K car is enjoyed by just as large a swath of the population, for just as large of a percent of the time they own/drive it, as the $80K car. You know it's a fact or nobody would be driving the $60K car! I do not know why that seems to get you so cranky.
If the C7 gets close enough on all the other stuff, then even more because a lotta folks love the loud pedal kick. So, I don't know if your statement above was another "red herring" as I described, but it was a completely bogus comparison, surrounded by a thousand wasted words. And another fun thread is trashed with this nonsense, which is the best description of 90% of your posts (apologies to all if my % is off a bit
)
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 02-23-2013 at 12:36 PM.
02-23-2013, 04:24 PM
#251
Drifting
The test driving comment was not directed at you (though you were subsequently involved in that discussion). Notice the double spacing.
Here's what the 1% (or actually more like .001%) has to do with this conversation: You derive pleasure and satisfaction in only those rarest of instances (1%) where you are doing 10/10ths on a road or track where you come upon another vehicle. The number of people like you is maybe .01% of the population. This represents an incredibly small portion of the buying public, and an incredibly small portion of their actual driving habits. Tadge Juechter had it right when he said that steering sensitivity matters (despite your claim that it doesn't): the figures found in stat sheets are the result of marketing, just for bragging rights. It's not for how people actually use these cars (ignoring for a moment that .001%). It's for guys who like to look over into the next urinal to check out another dude's junk (just so long as the next guy isn't an NBA baller type, because god knows he might go home and off himself in disgrace).
You derive that satisfaction from an incredibly small portion of the time that it takes in driving, and it depends solely on the presence of other cars. If there's no one around, you derive no pleasure from your car. (Your silence on that hypothetical Kia speaks volumes, BTW.) Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
Fastest convertible? It's still slower than the Corvette coupe and max performance is what you claimed was all important in a performance car, right? Guess you've never heard of a Zonda Roadster, or any number of other very fast convertibles (458, MP4, Aventador). But I agree: Some people will buy a Corvette because it is a Corvette and/or made in America. It is an iconic design and an important part of America's motoring heritage. This is largely a subjective, emotional trait. It has squat to do with how marginally faster it is than some other car at 10/10ths on closed circuits that only .00000001% (if that) of the driving population will ever face. (I'm talking about professional manufacturer drivers here.)
All this obsession with track performance, mid-engine placement, and yes even convertibles brings up a pretty decent editorial from Evo Magazine. See if this guy is totally off-base, and tell me that the Corvette team is silly for wanting to improve interior quality and subjective driving involvement with the C7, and benchmarking against the Europeans in the process.
Here's what the 1% (or actually more like .001%) has to do with this conversation: You derive pleasure and satisfaction in only those rarest of instances (1%) where you are doing 10/10ths on a road or track where you come upon another vehicle. The number of people like you is maybe .01% of the population. This represents an incredibly small portion of the buying public, and an incredibly small portion of their actual driving habits. Tadge Juechter had it right when he said that steering sensitivity matters (despite your claim that it doesn't): the figures found in stat sheets are the result of marketing, just for bragging rights. It's not for how people actually use these cars (ignoring for a moment that .001%). It's for guys who like to look over into the next urinal to check out another dude's junk (just so long as the next guy isn't an NBA baller type, because god knows he might go home and off himself in disgrace).
You derive that satisfaction from an incredibly small portion of the time that it takes in driving, and it depends solely on the presence of other cars. If there's no one around, you derive no pleasure from your car. (Your silence on that hypothetical Kia speaks volumes, BTW.) Meanwhile, the guy who appreciates good feedback, steering feel, a quality interior, etc, enjoys his car far closer to 100% of the time. Now which car has delivered the greater bang for the buck? A $60k car that can only be enjoyed .001% of the time by the driving population, or one the $80k car that can be enjoyed 100% of the time?
Fastest convertible? It's still slower than the Corvette coupe and max performance is what you claimed was all important in a performance car, right? Guess you've never heard of a Zonda Roadster, or any number of other very fast convertibles (458, MP4, Aventador). But I agree: Some people will buy a Corvette because it is a Corvette and/or made in America. It is an iconic design and an important part of America's motoring heritage. This is largely a subjective, emotional trait. It has squat to do with how marginally faster it is than some other car at 10/10ths on closed circuits that only .00000001% (if that) of the driving population will ever face. (I'm talking about professional manufacturer drivers here.)
All this obsession with track performance, mid-engine placement, and yes even convertibles brings up a pretty decent editorial from Evo Magazine. See if this guy is totally off-base, and tell me that the Corvette team is silly for wanting to improve interior quality and subjective driving involvement with the C7, and benchmarking against the Europeans in the process.
Last edited by ParisTNDude; 02-23-2013 at 06:45 PM.
02-23-2013, 10:37 PM
#252
And this is typical of what makes you and your buddy so aggravating. That $60K car is enjoyed by just as large a swath of the population, for just as large of a percent of the time they own/drive it, as the $80K car. You know it's a fact or nobody would be driving the $60K car! I do not know why that seems to get you so cranky.
Please do tell how you know I'm being "so cranky." Do you possess telepathic powers like ParisTNDude, who can't fathom his own hypocrisy with regard to the FIAT?
I think we know where the red herring is coming from: its you.
How about answering the question: Would you have paid the money you did on your car if it looked like a 1980s Corolla? I think you've failed to answer this question about 3 times now because you know the answer: You wouldn't pay that kind of money for a car that looks like (to you) a pile of crap.
Last edited by Guibo; 02-23-2013 at 10:39 PM.
02-24-2013, 09:12 AM
#253
2009 ZR1 SN 1166
i have not read the usual mine is bigger than your's bickering. I have a 911 turbo X50 and an 09 ZR1. Both are great cars. I love both for different reasons. Both have an achilles heal. Base model 911 or vette i would choose the 911. It is a better built higher quality car that costs more. Bang for your buck , corvette hands down. Appearance wise you either like the porsche or you don't. I personally think the lines on the C6 ZR1 make it the most beautiful modern corvette ever produced including the C7.
ZR1 is a better all around driver than the turbo. The turbo requires attention in the city while the ZR1 drives like a cadillac. On the highway and track you feel more connected in the turbo although there is virtually nothing to complain about in either of my cars.
ZR1 is a better all around driver than the turbo. The turbo requires attention in the city while the ZR1 drives like a cadillac. On the highway and track you feel more connected in the turbo although there is virtually nothing to complain about in either of my cars.