Does all of the gas around here (Seattle, Wa) have 10% ethanol in it at all times? Or is it a regional or seasonal type thing?

I am going to be looking at a tune soon and if there are different gasses floating around the area I would like to choose the best before doing so, and continue with that better fuel from then on.

The reason I ask is when I was living on the Wa/Id border we would get oxygenated fuel on the Wa side during the winter months, but it was straight gas on the Idaho side at all times. There was a noticeable difference between the diluted Wa gas and the straight Id gas, and I would make every effort to fuel on the Id side during that time.

Right now I typically look for a Chevron, is that the best I am going to do in the Seattle area?

Thanks in advance!!!

 

Oxygenated fuel at every station, regardless of brand, is a requirement (state law) throughout the state during the winter months. The idea is to cut emissions during winter due to longer periods of idling and longer warmups.

The cheapie gasolines (7-11, Arco's AM-PM, Safeway and Costco may have additional ethanol added to it but a 10% mix is not a requirement and most of these stations don't even go that high.

I think that ARCO is the only one that uses a fair amount of Ethanol in their gas. Too much of the Ethanol and it may cause problems with rubber seals in the fuel system.

Chevron, Texaco, and Union 76 are all decent gasolines. Chevron and Texaco are now the same corporation and both brands feature the same "Techron" fuel additive.

I use primarily Chevron in my truck and both Vettes but I get Texaco on occasion simply because of the common additive and the fact that my Chevron credit card can be used at Texaco stations.

 

c4cruiser - Great info, thanks!!! Any idea when they quit using the oxygenated fuels?

I may wait until regular gas is available to get the tune finalized, I have plenty of other projects for the car to keep me busy...

 

That fuel is usually discontinued in the spring. There is some power loss wih this fuel and there is a slight drop in gas mileage with the oxygenated fuel. But it happens every winter so if you are having a custom tune done, the tuner should already be aware of the annual switch.

 

I researched this heavily today because I am considering the HALLTECH Stage 1. According the Washington State Dept of Ecology there is no mandate until 2008 at which time all fuel must average out to contain 2% Ethanol. However, he said most (Conoco, Phillips, BP, etc.) are voluntarily E10. I also have confirmed with Shell they distribute E10.

I'm not aware (and don't believe...until proven wrong) there is any significant change in the Ethanol content seasonally. I beleive there was with MTBR(sp?)...usually referred to as oxygenated fuel...but it's out in favor of E10 due to it's polluting and corrosive properties. Again, I beleive it was seasonally variable but don't beleive that is being done with E10. If someone finds to the contrary please post references.

As i said I have confirmed with Shell that they distribute E10....i will follow up and confirm it's all year round....if one of you want to contact a different refinery, I'd like to know what you find out.

I have a contact at DOE but since it's all voluntary for the time being, I don't think he is the right source for that question.

The reason I got into this is I was talking to Jim Hall today....and now better understand what his (and some other) tunes bring. What gas we're using is important as jbauch357 suggests

The reason I logged onto the Regional Section was to ask if we have any good local tuners....someone reputable that dynos before and after etc. Otherwise Jim makes a pretty good case for his Stage 1 and I'm inclined to go with it's ease and simplicity.

 

In answer to your first question...yes, most WA gas is E10 albeit voluntary until 2008 (see my other post)
As to your last question....I used to be a Chevron fan....but avoid it like the plauge now and have for maybe 10 years now. Car knocks and knocks with Chevron....any car (to a greater or lesser extent)...any time. I then discovered Texaco...significantly and consistantly better....and now Shell, after Chevron had to sell 2 of the Texaco refineries to Shell after the buy out. Long story short, SHELL is the real deal (for me) and I will go out of my way or plan ahead to buy it.

Please keep us posted what/where/who you find to work with on tuning. Thanks.

 

I believe this is dated info but am working on verifying.

Correct not a requirement....untill 2008, at which time 2% of all fuel will need to be Ethanol (implys all gas will need to be E10 in order to attain a 2% average)

According the the DOP most all major refiners are voluntarily doing E10. And, as I understood it, it was the oxygenated fuel that was corrosive.

To each there own....I swear by the old Texaco (pre-Cheron) and the new Shell...IMHO.

Don't mean to be argumentative...just trying to get the facts so I can make an intelligent tuning decision.

 

So far I have been very satisfied with what Ellis at Speed Secrets has done, and still plans to do with my vehicle. We didn't do a before dyno cause I really don't care about measuring actual gains, and end numbers aren't really all that important - I am just getting tuned to make sure my current mods are being used to their full potential.

After installing my honker and exhaust I went to his shop and we did some playing with the tune. We made some changes to the spark/timing maps in the PCM and adjusted the A/F ratio to safe levels as reported by the PCM (prior to our adjustments the car was dead on at idle but close to 10% lean up top).

I am now waiting for my new pushrods to show up so I can install them and then I will be ready for the final dyno. We will utilize a wideband, the dyno, and ceratinly more stuff that I don't know anything about to finely tune the vehicle for max HP while staying with a safe tune.

 

Thanks. Sounds like your doing some serious work. While I don't plan on breaking into the engine...I too am just looking to optimize what I bought. As I now understand it....GM programs all their vehicles (all over the globe) assuming 100% gasoline. So, in our case, with E10...the factory tune is a already sub optimal. So I'm thinking.... that alone justifies a PCM tune! What do you think?

 

The pushrods are just cause I am finicky and don't know what the car has been through before I bought it. I am hearing a slight ticking/swishing sound that makes me suspect pushrods, and new chromolly 1-piece, hardened pushrods can't hurt anything - and are only $200 installed.

Like you stated - mods or no mods a tune can't hurt anything. Ellis is a great guy and it's a fun drive up there, let me know if you are up for a little cruise to Monroe. I hope to be up there within a couple weeks to get the pushrods installed...

 

There was a recent thread in another section (probably OT) that discussed differences between basic gasoline and specific brands. The consensus was that most name stations got a refined basic gasoline and the brand-specific additive was added at the time the tanker trucks delivered a supply to the station.

The concept was that contract gas haulers pulled up to storage tanks, filled the truck and trailer and then would stop at a variety of stations and dumped gas and added a particular additive for that company as the gas was off-loaded.

If you look at tankers delivering gas, you hardly see Chevron tankers, Texaco tankers, or Shell tankers anymore. Most are contract haulers or distributors.

If that's the case, then I would see little difference between Chevron and Texaco as the are the same corporation and bot advertise Techron as their additive. There may be slight differences in ehtanol percentages but that info may only be known to the refineries and distributors.

I currently use Chevron in my supercharged 02, my 87 autocross car and my 99 Silverado DD with no problems. When I do use Texaco, I find no differences in how the cars run. My 02 has a tune (modified Superchips programmer but it was set up for 91 octane fuel as the car came from CA) and I have not heard any sort of pinging or knock due to fuel issues.

I had used Shell in the past but for whatever reason, Shell gas in the greater Olympia area runs as much as a dime a gallon more than Chevron/Texaco. So simply for reasons of price, I have pretty much discontinued buying Shell hgere in town. Shell is competitive in other area in Puget Sound (especially in Lakewood/Tacoma) and if I happen to need gas at a time when I'm in that area, I will buy it.

 

Per e-mail from ShellCustomerCare@Shell.com..."Ethanol is all year round."

Looks like there is a tune in my future!

 

Cool, I've noticed that Shell is often a bit more....but the difference in my vehicles is so dramatic...I just figured you got what you paid for. I believe you're right about distribution....but I worry about the water in the off brands (Non TOP TIER)...condensation from multiple handlings and poor storage.

I found this TOP TIER link that sets higher standards and is supported by the major retailers...and surprisingly a few small ones!

QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Chevron-Canada
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Company
Shell-Canada
Texaco
Petro-Canada

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Which to your point, includes Chevron and Texaco....so go figure! It seems to me you should be good to go with any of these.

I only jumped on this thread because...coincidentally...I had been researching a question similar to jbauch357's. Not so much what special additives or detergents the various companies market....but what the basic blend of the gas is here. I was taken back when asked by a tuner "...what kinda gas do you have out there....". He explained that GM tunes all vehicles for "pure" gasoline....and that Ethanol for example, has a very different stoichiometric mix of fuel/air than does pure gasoline. Thus, unless we run pure gas....independant of the additives or octane...the programming in the car isn't optimal. Doesn't mean it won't run....just won't be getting optimal performance.

Thus my conclusion, that while not necessary....a tune is not a complete waste and should definately bring "some" improvement in performance and ecomomy.

 

Weather permitting*...count me in! But maybe we better let them get there power back and clear the streets eh!

*Sorry to be a weather wusy (sp?) but the car isn't even broken in yet!

 

Actually GM takes into account for the ethanol based fuels in the PCM code. They have many "flex" fuel engines out there that are designed to run on the current fuels as well as E85. The late model year PCMs are extremely intelligent, as in the case of your new car as you have the latest E series PCM utilizing the latest technology and CAN bus for communications between modules. What is in your car can be optimized but I can also tell you that the stock calibration is not that far off. Contrary to beleif GM does not leave too much on the table

 

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree. GM does not account for Ethanol....but rather allows some adjustment for a certain amount of it. Ethanol has a different stoiciometric mixture and the computer cannot re-program that mixture on the fly....thats what the flash re-programming does. As I understand GM sets the stoiciometric mixture for pure gasoline....and sub optimally allows for some ethanol. According to Jim Hall @ Halltech the base program for gasoline engines run stupid rich....rich to cool and stay way on the conservative side of detonation.

Also, I understand "Flex Fuel" is an even greater deviation form pure gasoline that requires significantly different programming. Good luck to you if you try and use flex fuel in your non flex fuel vehicle...I don't think the damage will be covered under warranty.

And finally, I'm talking about optimizing performance...refinement. I doubt 90% (or more) people know the difference, care about the difference, and probably think this is a stupid conversation. Yes, there is enough tolerance in the base programming to allow the safe use of a normal variety of retail gas.

However, I'm looking to optimize my significant investment in this vehicle. Perhaps to your point....if in fact we had pure (non ethanol) gas in WA...I wouldn't/couldn't justify a "Tune". The car is already optimized for that standard....would probably be great in Saudi Arabia. By the way, part of optimal performance is improved fuel ecomomy.

 

It says on the pump (at least here in Oregon) what the dates are. There's a notice on every pump. I think it's from either the end of October, perhaps end of November through the end of February.

- Jeff

 

Yeah, I remember seeing the stickers with dates on them when I was on the eastern side - but didn't see them when I last filled up over here. Oh well, as slow as the rest of my pre-final tune mods are going it may be late February until I am ready anyway...