Bronze76

Earlier this year I decided I was going to paint my car (finally). I have been on the fence for quite a while because the car still has the original paint and it didn't look too bad once shined up. However, any charm that comes from having original paint has been overshadowed by chips, scratches, dull spots and small cracks...so it's just time to give the car a new coat.

So, summer is almost over and I haven't changed my mind (like previous years) so I am ready to get started.

Since I am a paint novice, I have decided to use the body and paint write up from Lars Grimsrud and Butch Powers that was posted online a few years back. It seems like a great step by step guide that will help me have a successful project. They recommend the PPG DP system and since I have no allegiance to any particular paint product I figured I'd follow that recommendation.

So, I went down to my local PPG retailer armed with the write up and obtained pricing on the various items. Here is the list:
DP50LF (Grey Sealing Primer) 1 gal with DP401LF (regular catalyst)
DT870 reducer 1 gal
K36 Primer Surfacer 1 gal with hardener
DBU basecoat 1 gal with reactive reducer
Concept 2020 clear coat 1 gal with DT reducer and DU5 hardener

The price for all this stuff comes in around $1200-ish.
Does this sound about right? I don't buy paint for a living so I have no idea how to validate the price. In the back of my head I figured I'd need somewhere around $800-$1000 for the sprayable products but that was just a guess. I am not complaining about the price....if that is the cost then so be it. I just want to get a reasonable value for my dollar because I still need to plan for consumables like sandpaper, masking tape, masking paper, tack cloths, degreaser, scratch pads etc (which I am hoping I can get for $300-$500) but I haven't priced that stuff yet...

I have a spray booth with mixing room at work that I can use and I won't be rushed. I will have complete access for the rest of the year so I can take my time and methodically work through the steps. I have been reading posts on this forum and have gleaned some valuable info so far. This will be my 3rd time painting a vehicle but my 1st time with metallic paint so we'll see how it comes out. In case anyone is curious, I will be sticking with the original color which is a dark brown metallic.

So, am I in the range with the price of the paint or does it sound a bit too pricey?

Thanks

zwede

The color makes a big difference in price. The price sounds right for one of the more expensive colors, like red.

markids77

Two sprayable quarts of sealing primer should be close; is this a "1 to 1" by volume mix? If so get only a quart of each unless you intend to seal both sides of all accessible surfaces... a gallon is probably enough to seal nearly three cars as only a single wet coat is required. The K36 is your build and sanding primer... you might save some bucks there. I intend to spray a full gallon of single stage color on my 1977, but I will paint the car outdoors and intend to color sand and buff so the film will end up a coat or two shy in the end. BC/CC... if you spray an entire gallon of color there will be too much paint on the car even before you clear it in. Likewise, a gallon of clear is enough to do at least two cars...three sprayable quarts of material should get you through. Since you have a booth at work, run these numbers past the people who man that booth daily and see what material quantities are truly required... I think your local jobber sees an opportunity to oversell to you.

zwede

Dunno about that. It took over a gallon of Torch Red base to do my '71.

Keith Carlson

Prices for paint/body materials (no matter which manufacturer) are way too ludicrous anymore, but it's all petroleum derivatives, so just watch the price of a barrel of oil. And an industry that is collision repair driven paid for by insurance companies.

And some colors are a lot more expensive than others let alone some of the custom finishes (pearls, candies,etc.). Have to buy some base white for one of my old Toyota 4WD pickups and it was close to $100 a quart (and no Sikkens, Glasurit or Standox) and of course, a little less by the gallon. Need to do the inside of bed, interior, inner doors and jams, underside of the hood, etc. so a bunch of money for topcoats (base/clear) for a little truck. I probably have over $800 for undercoats on a vehicle that was stripped to bare metal and some areas sandblasted. Crazy. Ouch!

Any friends at a body shop? If so, and all things considered "compatible", you can always use some left over color they may have that is close to your base for the first couple of passes around the car. Use to do this all the time and can help a little. Maybe pay for the beer.

Good luck AND have fun!

Keith

vetman1

If I am not mistaken the K36 can be mixed and tinted as a sealer. Therefore you could do without the DP sealer. If you can get your sealer close to the color you want you can save quite a bit on the cost of your basecoat. We used a ton of PPG products at our shop until we switched to Sikkens, you will be pleased with their products.

Bronze76

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Sounds like the price is in the ballpark. One thing I forgot to mention is that I am also planning on painting my '55 Bel Air about a month after the Vette so having extra sealing and K36 primer isn't a bad thing. The '76 Vette is a driver so I was going to paint it first to work out any kinks in the process. I figure since the body is naturally wavy from the factory then it will be a good test of my patience and skill with the K36 to get it nice and flat enough for a quality finish coat.

I hear you about having too much color but I figure it's a dark color so I will need to make sure it's rich enough (if that makes any sense). Plus, since it a metallic color I really want to make sure I have enough to do the job the first time because I may not be able to replicate the conditions if I have to spray an odd panel on a different day. Not sure if this is really an issue or not but it's my first metallic spray so I'd like to try and get color on everything before breaking down the guns for cleaning.

Thanks again.

Spraygun

If your car has a an original finish with just some small cracks and no major bodywork I would recommend sanding your original finish, repairing any cracks, etc. priming those areas with K36 then using a sealer over everything, then BC/CC. I haven't seen DBU for over 15 years, it used a reducer with a hardner that gave the base a pot life. DBC would be my choice with a dt reducer for the temp range needed. DCU 2021 is what is used now, I don't think 2020 make the VOC cut, at least not in Md.

This way you need a:
1 qt. of K36, pint of K201
(the k36 can also be used as a sealer 2-1-1/2-1
ratio)
1 part K36
1 PPG tint or single stage dcc ( although the Psheet doesn't list it, I've used 2021 clear for this part, it uses the same hardner and thinner as the tints or single stage recommended)
1/2 part dt reducer
1 part K201

You should need 2 qts. DBC color ) depending on your color choiec and sealer color)
Two to three qt. 2021 clear, the dt you already bought,qt of DCX61 and your done.

Alot of people use epoxy, ie DPLF. I don't use epoxy on vettes, I don't see the need. Also DPLF has a specific recommended film build, too much, product failure, too little, product failure.

FYI, I have over 20 yrs. exp. spraying PPG
I am PPG certified:
Blue
Bronze
Deltron
Delta
Custom technique
Silver
Gold

markids77

The factory paint on your car is 35 years old and has withstood many summers of sun, detergent washings, polishes, tire shine, road tar and probably an oil leak or two in the engine compartment. In other words it is dead, and should be removed before you invest the time effort and money to repaint it to ensure no hidden surprises surface 6 months after you do it. I also strongly recommend use of a sealer as a base before primer as insurance that those oils/silicones that were used to beautify your porous fiberglass body all those years don't interfere with your new paint's adhesion to the surface.

Yes, you might get away with a "scuff and shoot", or a failure to seal, but after you finish hand blocking the car even for the first time (twice or likely more times if you strip and reprime) you'll have a better appreciation for the actual labor and time involved to do this... and I think you might feel the way I do about trying to do this only once.

Spraygun

Although it sure looks like it sometimes, auto paint does not "die" it is degraded by oxidation. I understand that there are alot of ways to get a good quality finish on a car. I would like to share my experience:

Oxidation is a problem for automotive finishes, since the outermost layers of paint are constantly exposed to air and water. The oxygen molecules in the air will eventually start interacting with the paint. As the oxygen burns up the free radicals contained in the paint, the finish becomes duller and duller. That is why proper sanding is crucial in the preparation of cured existing auto paint when refinishing. PPG, Dupont, Spies Hecker, etc. offer a life time warranty when using their products over existing finishes. Complete stripping of the existing finish is only recommended when the finish is unstable ( mostly from a cheap repaint ) or there is a build up from several repaints causing excessive film thickness. Proper degreasing followed by sanding will quickly remove any oxidation and prepare the substrate for refinishing. Complete removal of the finish and exposing the panels ( glass or metal) adds a new set of procedures and possible contamination. If a painted suface is exposed to oil, silicone, etc. it is easily cleaned with a good wax and grease remover, if a bare panel ( especially glass ) is exposed to the same oil/silicon, I must more involved cleaning process is needed. I have had to bake glass panels several times and scrub with degreaser to be able to refinish after exposed to oil/silicon, then use a polyester primer to ensure a solid substrate for paint.
Auto finishes have changed alot in the last few years, they are getting ready to change again. Epoxy primers such as PPG DPLF which have a critical total film thickness are no longer needed in fiberglass repair/refinish. Spies Hecker ( among others ) has 2k high solid primers that are life time warranted when applied to glass/composite panels. Within the next 2 years solvent basecoat will be reserved for industry other than auto body, Clearcoats will be 2.1 VOC that makes them twice as thick out of the can as todays High Solids clears. Sprayguns will use 1.2 or smaller fluid nozzels, older booths with lower cubic feet per minute turnover will struggle to turn out quality jobs. In humid areas air blowers will be needed as waterborne basecoat drying is governed by moisture content of air rather than temp.
Enough outta me.

markids77

Remember that most folk here are not bodymen by trade, and this attempt at paint is quite likely the first... and perhaps only... job they will do. They don't even know what a VOC is never mind care why your job will get more difficult in the near future... they want to paint one car and have it come out nicer than it is right now.

I base my advice on the premise that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure so I recommend sealers, stripping and such in the hope that neophyte bodymen will have a good outcome the first time they try this... step saving decisions are OK for experienced workers who can distinguish between a finish which is simply weathered and one which has oxidized beyond salvation. This is one area where (for the uninitiated) a bit of overkill can be a very good thing. I was not sniping at your knowledge or experience... simply suggesting that a "complete" job might have a more certain outcome for a new painter.

porchdog

the lacquer must come off. it is way past it's life span and is dry and degraded by years of uv exposure. it is not a question of will it fail but how soon it will fail. get back to clean fiberglass and epoxy it. epoxy is by far the industry standard for restoration on older vettes.

Spraygun

Don't get me wrong, I've come kicking and screaming through years of watching products I've depended on either change or get cut from product lines. When PPG cut DP primer and replaced is with DPLF, I bought 12 gals. from existing stock. Removing the lead from DP took away the charactistics the made it a good choice for restorations. I went to the product reps, they admitted the change made it difficult to use and changed it properties, but offered no solution. Over the years I watched DCPH, K200 and many more products not make the VOC cut. Bottom line is that the products available today are safer but do not work as well for restoration applications, paint companies make their money from new car finishes and collision repair.
I'm a huge fan of people painting their own cars. I mix paint for them, I've gone to peoples houses on my own time to help with problems and will continue to. The fact is this, it a couple years epoxy primer will be gone... waterbourne products and updated 2k will be the only things available. In my opinion the new products work better in certain situations,but don't lend themselves to being used outside of a body shop.
I'm 60 hrs. into a 69 conv. job



It arrived having been sitting outdoors after being stripped. I didn't use epoxy anywere on this car because it wasn't the best choice available. Panels were cleaned and checked for contamination, then Spies Hecker 2k or polyester were applied, the aluminum parts will get Spies wash primer then 2k. The entire car will get 3 coats of Spies 4500, sanded, taped, then 4-5 coats of 2002 blue black base then cleared. The next day I will decide to either wetsand/buff or sand entire car with 800 then re clear.
I've had to learn to use the products available from the paint companies today and turn out work of extremely high quality, in todays economy if you can't produce, your out of a job.
I've written this to help the garage painter,to show them whats on the horizon and give them a chance to prepare. I'll take time to answer any questions. Unfortunatly the future is coming, it'll be stinky slow drying base and clear as thick as molassass.

porchdog

there is nothing stronger or as flexible as epoxy . it is becoming the go to choice of high end shops for refinishing corvettes. it has excellent and sealing and adhesion qualities. my epoxy of choice is spi. it is all i use on glass. i use no polyester or urethane primers at all. especially urethane primers developed in the 70's . ok for collision shops but not for 50 year old glass.

Keith Carlson

...and with all the finish problems the Big Three in the USA experienced in the 70's thru the 80's, it was like a revolving warranty door at GM dealers. There were many months warranty paint labor exceeded the other bottom lines in the early 80's. Bye bye factory finishes. There is very little I would be likely to topcoat without stripping to bare metal or fiberglass during those years, especially when I owned my own business.

PS. And the same was true for all the Mercedes Benz I also did (complete strip/refinish) in those years. Even though MB coined the "2K" phrase for their early base/urethane clear factory finishes, they too (as well as the other German cars) struggled with early clear failures. RM (BASF) also developed their 2K clear (urethane) in the 70's for use over acrylic lacquers in the 70's which was a lot better than the competition. It is not a new "term" for defining catalyzed refinish materials. Technology has come a long way from those early days and the materials have become a lot more reliable.

Spraygun

Where I work now is a shop where we do 50% collision and 50% restoration/older car paint jobs. We use Spies on everything except candies, which we use House of Kolor. We have a Spies mixbank and computer. We also have the luxury of having an employee who worked for Spies as a rep. The Spies line has a product for every type of job we encounter, their warranty is great although we haven't had to use it. Having used different products over the years for restorations, Using one paint line whos products are designed to work with each other through the process has been easier and more dependable. With the exception of wash primers and some specialty products, you can take all Spies products, dump them together in a cup, and spray ( not that you would want to ) there is only one set of hardners for everything. If you have a new panel with stable E coat, you degrease, spray Vario sealer, basecoat, clear without sanding. All wet on wet, I've been doing this for years without a problem, there are other paint companies with similar lines. If you follow Spies tech sheets for product choice and application, use fluid nozzle size for the products your spraying, have a booth with proper air flow,you will end up with a quality long lasting finish, EVERY time. Is that possible using other products? of course. Bringing different products in the mix, you have to be more careful, without using those particular products in the past, then seeing what the job looks like one, five, ten years down the road. It's hard to say how it will look. Last week I painted my sons car with PPG epoxy, Spies 2k primer, PPG sealer, Spies base, PPG dbc 500 midcoat with gold pearl, UPOL clear. Waited 24 hours, sanded clear with 800, then recleared with UPOL clear with PPG Harlquin additive. Car looks great out of the booth. I have no idea what it will look like in 5 years, chances are he'll wreck it or sell it before then.
Years ago I was a bench chemist, cocktailing different products and mix ratios to get the finish I wanted. Now I can't think of, or come up with a way to improve what is offered in the paint line already, it's a no brainer for me, I can say with assurance that the finish will look good for years.
As for epoxy primer, it has been altered due to the VOC mandates in the 90's early 2000's and it is probably going to be altered/cut from the auto paint line in a 2013 ( it will probably be available as an industrial coating) when solvent basecoat is dropped. If it's dropped, it will be illegal to spray on cars in bodyshops. Last month I saw a 67 conv. vette bigblock car I painted in 99, I stripped it and used no epoxy during refinish, with the exception of a couple scratches, it still looks great. People will still use epoxy on vettes for as long as they can get it, legal or not. I'm just offering my experience on refinishing without it. There will also always be guys who can turn out quality show car paint jobs out of garages, my hat's off to you! I respect anyone who can do that. They are few far between, this post is for the rest of us..

Spraygun

I agree, that's why I use a modern european paint line, american paint companies have beem playing catch up in my humble opionin. As I'm sure you know no american paint company makes a black that looks like a european black. I've shown customers PPG dcc/dbc 9000 next to Spies or Glasurit blue black, deep black etc. and they are amazed.
Everyone has a learning curve when new products have to be made, europeans had a quicker shorter one than we did.. I remember stripping ribbed Dodge Caravan roofs and refinishing for 9 hrs. flat rate, I pitied the guys at the Ford dealers doing de-lam work for months.

porchdog

i use ppg ss or prospray for color. everything else is spi. there is a huge difference in production and custom. very few clears can go to 10+ coats without failing. the spi universal is good to 20 in custom work. i use epoxy because it is the very top resin . not all epoxies are equal as many are more of a hybrid than a true epoxy . most of the vettes i do are from the 50's and the glass is gassed out and degraded very bad. a piece of fiberglass will turn to dust in time . by using epoxy i am replacing the foundation to paint on. many shops still use polyester gel coat but i find the epoxy easier to work with and not as brittle. a big plus is it stay flexible but strong.
i have only 3 products on a car . no solvent cleaners , no urethane primer sandwiched between epoxy . nothing to shrink and swell in the sunlight.

markids77

So what's our consensus for the OP here? I say strip it bare, repair the damages and seal with a dedicated sealer whether epoxy or urethane since both offer insurance against bleed through. Prime and block as required then BC/CC in urethane since this is a metallic finish. PPG products are pretty universally available and of good quality so let's go with their complete "system"... OK with you guys?

porchdog

ppg has nothing i will paint over. love their single stage . do not care for their primers or clears. most are hard brittle production primers and clears.
i paint over epoxy , which is flexible , i use single stage color, which is flexible, i use spi universal clear , which is flexible. just like the polyester base you are painting over. glass moves around. it's why so many lacquer jobs shattered .