VancouverL71

I have had a few other posts that have given me some direction from DUB and a few others but thought I would start a new thread as I begin the repair work on my front clip in an effort to correct the drivers side door gaps and the left front fender apparent misalignment.

Hopefully I can get a few pointers from the experts as I move forward.

Here are the details:

1. 1969 big block L71 convertible
2. Spent most of its life in a dry Nevada climate (no frame rust)
3. Was involved in some front end damage likely in the 1970's which led to some very poor repairs involving repatching or replacing the left front fender and perhaps the hood surround.
4. Car was originally Riverside Gold but was repainted Yellow and then repainted its present Maroon approx 15-20 years ago.
5. I have just removed the engine, transmission and front suspension for rebuild and to provide access to the front clip for repairs.
6. Person doing the work has very little experience (me) with no help from anyone with fiberglass experience.
7. I aim to do this job properly and would rather take more time to do it correctly rather than cut corners to just get it back together.

Here are the links to the other threads if anyone is interested but for better continuity I decided to start a new thread for the repair.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...der-droop.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ement-bar.html

I understand that the front clip can be removed without removing the windshield, however,

Question 1 Do the doors need to be removed? The gaps are pretty good on the passenger side so I hesitate to mess with something that already fits well. The drivers door is a bit tight on the back door gap but very good on the lower front of the door (obviously very bad on the top of the front drivers door. (perhaps hood surround not accurately bonded to the left front fender as DUB previously suggested)

Question 2 Where do I begin? I replaced the hood surround reinforcement bar and rebuilt the front lights and set the bumper so I will remove all of those parts later today but then what? Shall I start heating and attempting to release the bonds at the firewall or shall I consider removing the front left fender first since it has likely been bonded to the hood surround incorrectly?

Question 3 Shall I consider just removing parts of the front clip or will it all need to be removed.




Here are a few pictures of where I am at today.

DUB

Removing the doors are not that big of a deal and with what you are about to take on...it will seem like a walk in the park.

When a front clip is being reinstalled for bonding I do have the doors back on so I can make sure I get the clip where I need it...but...I do take them of so I can get to the bonding areas on the backside of the fenders and top hood surround at the front door gap that can be seen when the door is open and filled in and looking good.

(My opinion) First off you have to be really careful on WHERE you are placing you jack stands so you are not putting any stress on the frame that would be different than if it had tires/wheels on it. I put the jack stands IN the coil spring pockets....so they are in line with the contact patch area of the tire when it is on the ground....so the frame thinks that is is on the ground.

I then put the jack stands under the wide section of your rear brake rotors so the rear suspension is still being used and no stress on the frame is possibly causing an issue.

My way of thinking is...IF I keep the frame as like it is when it is on the ground then when I do put it on the ground I should not have any unwanted movement due to incorrect supporting of it. I have to write...having the car on the ground with tires aired up correctly ...just like it will be when you are driving it... is my PREFERRED METHOD.

The problem you can run into when you go and install/bond a front clip when there is no engine and so on is that you really do not know if when you do put your engine in...IF you had the height incorrect at bonding and now when you shut your hood...you air cleaner may contact it.

IF this is the process that is needed to be used...then hopefully measurements were taken so you know how far away from the top surface of your cradle to the top of your air cleaner was....or the top surface of your air cleaner to the top surface of the top surround. Also...due to not having upper control arms installed..the cut out in your skirts can also come into play and be really tight...but if the control arms are installed you can look and see if you need to stretch out the front of the clip to get that area better fitting.

The headlight assemblies are rather heavy and if you want to deal with that added weight ...leave them in...if not ...take them out. And as for the large vacuum storage tank, charcoal canister, etc. and other parts that are attached to the skirts...that is up to you. I generally remove those type of parts if their weight is significant enough to compromise the part I am installing.

DUB

VancouverL71

Thanks for the advice Dub

1. I will remove the doors and worry about realignment later.

2. As for the jack stands, I currently have the car sitting on the back wheels with four jacks up front with most of the weight on the suggested jacking location. As soon as I get the front end back and bushings done, I will reassemble that part and sit the car as you suggest. It also made me realize the importance of correct weight in the car so when I get to that point, I will re install the engine first and then set the front clip. I suspect that will be in some time as the clip may look OK from a distance but it really needs a considerable amount of work. As you say, that will alleviate any issues with hood contacting my air cleaner.

3. As for removing parts, what I meant was shall I remove parts of the front clip (i.e. just left fender etc) or the entire clip at once. The reason I asked this is that I discovered something which may put your original diagnosis right on the money. In an earlier thread, you suggested the left fender bonding seam may not be aligned correctly. (DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE LEFT FENDER GAP IS GOOD AT THE BOTTOM BUT WAY TOO WIDE AT THE TOP) Today I discovered original riverside gold paint on the left fender but none at all on the hood surround, front valance or the right fender. Logic suggests the entire clip other than the left fender was replaced at some time and that that particular seam has been re-bonded when it was repaired.
Would there be any case to leave the left front fender in place and reset the rest?
In thinking it all through, maybe that is a stupid idea to try to separate the fender from the hood surround while still on the car)
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Pete

DUB

I prefer to have the engine already in place when I install front clips because...honestly it is really easy for me to install and engine/transmission with nothing on the front of the car.

If you now know that the front clip has had some work done on it that is NOT factory.

What I would do is get the front clip off the car...becasue just trying to get the left side to come off and leave the right side attached can be done what what you have to do is make a cut in the thin strip of fiberglass that goes along the top of the firewall.

This can be really risky because the fender can snap and or crack due to the amount of force you are using to raise it up to inspect and repair the gusset I am referring to. I know it can be done but what you might find is that you work area may be reduced and thus...may take longer do do what you need.

Then take a really good look a the gusset that is bonded and pop riveted to your windshield frame....and then assess what to do with the front clip in regards to the previous repair.

Just because it has been repaired does not mean that it MUST be re-done....BUT...that is for you to decide and when you do some investigating in how it is bonded...will tell you know that.

98+% of the time...I rework whatever I find ( with customer approval)...but I am a bit different...and that is IF I do not repair a problem that a customer has been notified about and does not ant to pay to fix it or replace it...and it fails. I am sick about it but what can I do. I am not fixing every little thing on the car unless I am getting paid for my time. Seeing how I have to warranty my work....it is better for me to do it when I am doing the body work instead of NOT doing it and then have to do it again AFTER I had painted the car.

It is not a stupid idea of trying to separate the top hood surround from the fender. Because if things go wrong...it can be repaired....and if it goes well... then it was a good idea. When I get into repairs that are much like this where I can make two choices of a procedure....I have already come to accept the fact that if all goes really bad...it is no big deal.

I know this can be taken as a partially negative comment...but I often times say..."Hope for the best but expect and accept the worst."

DUB

VancouverL71

Thanks,
Your advice is very much appreciated! I now have the next steps required clear in my mind!
Pete

DUB

Pete,
I hope that it all goes well but if not...you have a place that you can ask for advice/suggestions ...as you know.

DUB

VancouverL71

Success, the clip was removed without creating any more major damage than it already has.
If anyone is interested, it was about 10-12 hours of work to remove the clip which included removing the front bumper, the front doors and wiring harness etc.
Tomorrow I will remove the lights and survey the damage to help determine where to begin.
In the mean time, just a quick question if you don't mind DUB,

1. Will the goal normally be to eventually set the inner fenders in place on the car and then work towards adjusting and setting the front clip?
If so, I assume that once the headlights are out, I should turn the clip over and remove the inner fenders?

DUB

***CAUTION***

Now with you having the front clip off. Take time to make sure that you clamp some type of board or rod across the back area of the clip....where the narrow strip of fiberglass that was bonded onto the top of the plenum. If you don't...it can snap in half.

Having the inner skirts off....and then having them bolted to the radiator support upon re-assembly...and then you trying to slide the complete front clip onto them...I know that this will not work due to you can not splay apart the ends of the fenders where they meet the door....due to the narrow strip being intact.....and even if were broken...I do not think that will work.


SO...I install the inner skirts...and get them set in place...so when I go and set the front clip back in place....I can bolt the inner skirts to the radiator support.....and then get the hood hinges back on the inner skirts and get the hood on it so I know where the front clip needs to be before I bond in the front section of the inner skirts.

****IMPORTANT****
ALSO....the corner gusset bonding area...at the bottom corner of the windshield on each side....where the very end of the top hood surround was bonded. CAREFULLY look at this area because those three rivets that are holding it in place along with bonding adhesive....THIS AREA.is where you problem of your gap was originating.

I always remove them ...clean it up...re-install it with new rivets and use the SEM beige catalyzed seam sealer UNDER this panel to seal that area so NO water leaks can occur.

DUB

VancouverL71

DUB

I have clamped some wood to make the clip more rigid where you suggested.

I will remove those upper corner pieces near the window as you suggested. (I will just drill the rivets out and use the same process I did to remove the clip)

I have removed the left inner fender and will remove the right later today. Starting to think that maybe I should just locate a few inner fenders in good condition as they are pretty rough. I have a lead on an NOS right inner for a 1969. Have read something about a difference of whether or not they originally had AC so not sure they are all the same. Mine as the L71 of course did not have ac.

I have began stripping the paint off.

Once the paint is off and the inner fenders are out, I will post a few pics of what I have to work with.

Many thanks for you guidance on my project!

Pete

DUB

Sounds like you have a plan and are on your way to getting it to the next step.

DUB

VancouverL71

Paint removal is slow and steady by razor blade in some areas followed by lots of sanding. So far, the damage I am revealing is less than I originally expected but I certainly have my work cut out.

But before I look into fibreglass repairs I would like to remove all of the paint.

But I am wondering how to remove the paint from the 90 degree lip where the hood surround rolls in at the edge of the hood. Is hand sanding the only option. I can’t think of a good tool to get in this area?
Same for the 1 inch cross piece that joins the two fenders at the top of the hood surround.

Any ideas from anyone.

DUB

I chemically strip the paint off.

DUB

SB64

My 69 had an Eckler clip so I removed it and replaced it with a donor. There were many test fits to get it right. As per Dub I took his advice and did all test fits with the car on the ground and sitting on it's tires. A real challenge for a novice and the door gaps were no exception. Very rewarding thou when completed. All of my work was done by me with much advice from Dub. You stick with a good thing.........................

RVZIO

VancouverL71

Thanks DUB,
Have been out of town but back to the project soon. I will switch to chemical stripper in those hard to reach areas.

Thanks for the pictures RVZIO.

I have referred to your pictures above as well as in your rebuild post which have been very helpful to me and many others I am sure. Especially your ones regarding replacing the front clip. It was largely due to your post that I abandoned the idea of a replacement clip and decided to rework the clip on the car. Your rebuild has given me inspiration to carry and and just get it done. I think like you I took on a project a little larger than I had originally planned but slow and steady wins the race.
I will definitely have the engine and suspension back on the car prior to setting the front clip as per DUB's advice. I just hope I can manage the bodywork as well as you have.

Cheers, Pete

SB64

Hi Pete and thank you for the kind words. Slow and steady does win the race and from what I see you will be fine. Good luck I will be following your progress.
RVZIO

VancouverL71

Well after about a year I am finally returning to the body work portion of my build. The engine is in place, front end rebuilt and ready for the first start up any day and the weight is back on the wheels.

I have began fibreglass repair of my inner fenders and after some help last year from Dub when I repaired my firewall I am slowly gaining some confidence with the fibreglass. I am pretty happy with the way the inner fenders are coming up. I am returning my attention to the front clip repairs.

I am just getting a few things together. I just ordered some sheet wax which should arrive this week. This should help in a couple of problematic spots in my hood surround and lower front fenders.

I want to get the epoxy product to bond the front clip ordered and some type of application gun. Does anyone have any recommendations. I have done a fair bit of reading over the last year but trying to go back and locate the useful threads is not always easy. The two part Lord Fusor seems to be what most people use but have seen both the T21 and the slow acting 127EZ used. Any recommendations for 1969 fibreglass.

Also, how much will I require to bond the front clip. Is one tube enough or will I need two or three.

Thanks, Pete

DUB

Pete,

I use the SEM 39747. SEM should have a local rep in your area to loan you an application gun so you do not need to buy one. Call SEM at (Customer care @ 1-866-327-7829) ( Tech line @ 1-800-831-1122) Eastern time zone.

In this particular application of front end...due to it being press molded polyester fiberglass and not the SMC design...I also use the Vette Panel Adhesive with red hardener to mimic the color of the actual adhesive used back in that year model. It is not hard to do but it is all up to how much hardener you add to it...which can increase or decrease the work time. Air temps also play a role in how it sets up also. Colder temps give you more working time even if the same amount of hardener was added to the amount on the mixing board. Many people choose not to got his route and use the cartridge tube type of adhesives due to it being easier not much thinking is needed.

YES...you can use the LORD FUSOR, 3M , DuraMix or Pliogrip adhesives if you want to as long as they are for this type of bond.

Buy more than you need and return what you do not need due to it is hard to tell you EXACTLY how many tubes to buy....due to each car is different and there can be areas on some cars where the adhesive was quite thick...and other area...like across the top of firewall area that it will not be so thick. I would guess that two tubes of the SEM is needed...but I would have another on hand. MAKING SURE that the date codes are also good so you are getting good adhesive.

DUB

VancouverL71

Thanks Dub,

I will order the SEM product since they all are about the same price.

May have a couple questions about the clip and suggested repair ideas but firstly I will get these inner fenders finished and painted up.

I think you suggested in this thread that the inner fenders needed to be in place and then the entire unit fit to the firewall/radiator shroud. I guess it would be pertinent to temporarily attach them and check fitment as my main reason for removing the clip was to sort out my door gap on the drivers side which was too wide at the top of the door (and the hood surround sitting too high where the stainless trim piece attaches) PICTURE 2 at the very beginning of this thread,,,,, yet the door gap and position of the left fender at the bottom looked pretty good.

Perhaps I can attach my inner fenders to the hood surround only and just temporary attach them to the actual fender on the drivers side just in case it needs to be removed and reset.

Hopefully I don't need to correct and rebond the left front fender to the hood surround but I think we decided that this might be my problem.

Very much appreciate your advice DUB

SB64

I would put the inner fenders on the front clip and then do a test fit, and another and another until you have things lined up. Eyebrow trim door gaps to a point etc. Door gaps can always be addressed once you have the clip set. Core support and center support rod will help with the hood. You can do it!!

DUB

If I had a front clip and the inner skirts are not installed. I would get the front clip set up and supported and install the inner skirts and get them set so I can attach the hood and MAKE SURE my hinges will allow the hood to fit correctly.....due to the front gap of the hood to the top hood surround is controlled by WHERE you put the inner skirts. It all goes back to MATH. The distance of the hole in the hood for the hinge and the center of the latch on the hood is a given distance and cannot change .....so...the hole for the bolt in the inner skirt for the hinge and the center of the pin that catches onto the latch is where you are measuring.

Now I may ONLY bond the front section of the inner skirt to the inner fender are and NOT across the top of the inner skirt or behind the tire. And clamp the rear area when I go to move the clip onto the car and un-clamp it so I can get the clip on.

This is so I can either raise or lower the top hood surround in relation to the hood when I get it installed....and also ..by having the inner skirt NOT bonded at the back behind the tire.... it can allow the front clip to be a bit easier to pull out so you can get it on all your bonding adhesive on the cowl when you go to put it on.

Because you can always bond the top of the inner skirt and behind the wheel and put it where you need it to go AFTER you have the front clip bonded on.

YES..I have had the inner skirts fully bonded in place and was able to get the front clip on...so it is six of one... half a dozen of the other. BUT I had also made sure my hood was flush all the way around and got things where they needed to be when I bonded the skirt all the way on.

SO...it kind of depends on how I am feeling at the time due to I have two different methods and both work.

Also by me bonding on the inner skirts AFTER the clip is on. I can use VPA and bond the area needed due to I have previously prepped everything and I can use a spreader and fill in the seams...for those Corvettes that will allow VPA to be used in this area. Using a spreader and pumping out the SEM on a board and filling in those seams is do-able...but can be a bit messy if you are not careful.

DUB