SB64

Hi Rob, first let me complement you on all of the repair pictures. People can certainly follow along very clearly. Doing a great job of removing all of the bondo or whatever. It will make the repair a lot better for sure. Gets a little scary but it looks great so far. What software are you using for the arrows and comments?

RVZIO

RobfromME

Good evening, Roger,
Thank you for your kind words! I've been worried I had too many pics or too big pictures and it might annoy folks, but then I asked myself what would help me if I was wasn't the guy doing it. So...lots of big clear pictures!
I use Microsoft PowerPoint to "doctor up" the pictures....I use it at work a lot for report writing, so it's familiar to me.
Dub's tireless efforts have really made this project seem within reach. He shared some VERY helpful tips today, and when I get back from my business trip this week, I'll continue forward and document the progress!
Thanks again, Roger. I'm still really impressed with that splash you made and how perfect it looks! It's great motivation for me too.
Have a great evening!
Dub, thanks so much again for your interest and help! I so appreciate it!!

SB64

Rob , your very welcome and thanks for the info. I have used powerpoint in the past but need to check it out again. Is it winter yet in Maine?

RobfromME

Fortunately, no...not winter yet! Hot and humid this week, but I'll be in Huntsville. Then again, HSV is also hot and humid, so I won't miss it! Only bummer is my connection is thru Washington DC. I was hoping Charlotte so if he had time I could see Dub. I'll keep trying! The way the airlines flying out of Bangor, ME are, the routes change every few months so anything can happen. Last year every flight connected thru Charlotte, this year, all DC.
The downside of being away this week is I'm missing good weather to get stuff done on the car and it won't be lasting.

bazza77

wow RobfromME your doing a great job ,first time is scary for sure . when I was grinding on my 77 front bond strip for repairs sparks started coming out from the screws and rivets someone had left in from a bad repair. I was told by a local fibreglass guy when you fix bad repairs you usually end up getting the area looking real bad first ,that means you have done the proper prep ! Don't stress , with those clear pics and the help your getting here you wont be able to go wrong .


looking forward to seeing your progress

Highflight

Well hell, let me jump and cause my brand of trouble.

First of all, there's too much crap going on in that quarter panel to nickel dime it back into shape.
Time is money, and that includes time to redo it again if something underneath the junk you do fix comes back to haunt you later.

So from a pure pro standpoint as if that car was brought to me for repair, I would carefully trim off the left quarter at the body seams.
Yes, part of the seam is messed up, so what you do is to run a masking tape line all along the same distance below the peak that is determined to be where the seam is by seeing what that distance below the peak is where the seam is good.
Once the quarter is off, the skirt and upper panel area will be much better exposed so that you can properly grind off all the backside crap, do a proper layup on the backside, finish the grind and layup of the top surface area, splice in a new bonding strip where required, then just put on a new quarter panel and be done with it.
I get frustrated looking at stuff like this because I came across so much of it that I was asked to make right and guarantee my work into perpetuity.
There's a time to repair and there's a time to replace. In this case, I'd repair the top panel but replace the quarter panel.

SB64

Your point is taken as it sounds like you have a shop where you are getting paid for your work and guarantee. Your quote of time is money is not necessarily the point here. I don't have my own shop, well I do in a sense and have done many repairs and don't think that's what the OP is going for here. He like many of us want to learn certain aspects of the paint and body world. To us it's a hobby and is very rewarding to accomplish the challenges. I understand the time is money, bang it out world, but in the world of some banging things out is not always the goal. Also it is important to remember that as novices support is important and the forum does a great job of that. The pro's here often chime in to show and tell us how you can fix something and often get great results. The OP is doing a great job on something he has never done so we don't want to kill his MOJO!

RVZIO








The flash mold making, bodywork, primer and paint all done by me a novice and the support of the forum. It can be done if you want to learn and I see nothing wrong with the end results.

Highflight

I apologize if I came off a bit harsh, but my intentions are quite pure.
I should probably give some background...
I ran my shop, not a large one, with maybe 10 employees as an average throughout my time in business from the early '70's to mid '90s. I was, however, a working owner. Back then, virtually all body shops worked on commission, not salary, so to keep everyone happy, it usually turned out that I gave all the procedural work to my employees while I took the heavier hit "challenges" that required a serious attention to detail as well as paint operations the presented some challenging solutions.
My employees and my customers all touted my "skills", so I guess I was pretty good at what I did.
The thing is, my personal reputation meant that I was expected to work some miracles on some things that should never be considered. Some of the crap I was asked to repair turned out to be "do-overs" that some other bodyman or painter had butchered.
So my frustration at seeing what the OP is facing brings back all sorts of memories that taught me to look at a bigger picture instead of trying to "prove" how good I was. I'm not suggesting that the OP is trying to prove anything, I'm just trying to help him avoid one of the kinds of traps that I danced around to avoid and might regret later.
It doesn't matter that the OP isn't in the business, he will still have to face what might come back to haunt him if he doesn't get rid of all the nasty crap and make it truly whole again by getting rid of the snot in that quarter instead of patching it and glassing over it.
In short, virtually ANYTHING fiberglass on a Corvette can be repaired. But that doesn't mean that repair is always the best option when replacement is better called for.

And to better explain my attitude on this, I'll mention that in an attempt to branch out and help people who couldn't afford a full blown restoration job, I started a one-man (me) restoration consulting "operation" (for lack of a better word) where I would visit people's homes and offer consulting (paid, of course) and give one on one advice to people at various stages of their restoration and keep them moving in the right direction. If you were to pay me (a pittance, really) to come visit you and your car in person, inspect what you're doing, then offer specific advice as to how you should continue from where you had become confused (including techniques, materials, instructions, etc.), then you would have an idea of how that worked. When you got stumped again, you call me and I drop by again. Simple. My business card read "CarCraft Paint Clinic" but I did advise on full restorations beyond just paint.
So my advice is the best I can give based on photos (limited, I know), but my advice is simply an honest evaluation as to the direction I think the OP should go to arrive at the best possible outcome in both the least expensive way, and the least cost of time. Not trying to kill his MOJO, I'm trying to enhance it.

But hey, guess what?... advice of any kind from anybody can be ignored for any reason. It's not like anyone is sending me a check or anything, nor am I trying to prove anything.
The great thing about these forums is that people get to pick and choose from whatever advice they do get, or, ignore it all and just forge ahead. God, I love this country!

And rvzio, I hate it if I sound snotty again, but the orange peel on that left quarter is a bit harsh. I could have helped you with that. Oh crap, there I go again... It's clear that I'm not going to be very well liked around here.

DUB

"Highflight'

Just so you know I have had LENGHTHY conversations with Rob and Roger in his subject. I have talked with Rob on his front bumper install and now this quarter panel and it is still in the investigation/beginning of repair stage..

I CLEARLY discussed how the dynamics of when guys like us who do this for a living have to look at it in a different way than those like Rob and Roger who want to learn and expand their knowledge and not just be a 'parts replacer'.

I have mention them both that I envy them because I can remember the feeling I got when I took on a job like this instead of replacing the part and achieved success. It was so rewarding. I kind of miss that due to I have done it so much...it has become to be expected.. I still love it ...but I do not get the tingly feeling due to as I wrote ...I know I can fix.it and it is not uncharted territory.

THAT is what I hope these guys get to experience...and oftentimes it has nothing to do with time or money. it has to do with journey to the end result that they can see is awesome. A total sense of accomplishment.

And on some Corvettes the owner is willing to pay to keep the original panel on the car and have it repaired. There choice in that due to I have given them options on the repair and its costs.it..

I know 'highlight' you had that feeling once and still may remember how it felt to do something that everyone around you told you it could not be done but you DID IT and it was right when competed. Which showed you that 'those' people had no clue on what you were made of and what YOU could do. And you never worried about the time...it was the learning process to gain knowledge and give yourself the 'tools' to make you a better bodyman/painter/owner of a shop

I know this from my experiences when people told me it could not be done and when I was done... I could give them the middle finger salute and sit back knowing that THEY were not the deciding factor of my capabilities. It only showed that they were incapable. NOT writing that is what you are saying...because I understand where you are coming from and it is all good.

DUB

Highflight

I confess that you are much more noble than I (no sarcasm there, that's based on how far you are willing to go with these guys).
And what you say about me just above is quite accurate... to a point.
I felt like that for years and years until I was in my mid 40's and realized that feeling like that wasn't doing me any good. I was failing miserably trying to figure out not just if I would have an ok retirement, but if I would have a retirement at all.
I walked away from my Corvette business and started an entirely different one in an entirely different industry because I DID have to worry about the time I spent not producing meaningful income for my family and eventual retirement, a business where I didn't have to spend my days frustrated dealing with insurance companies who cared little about the work I did and wanted to pay nothing for it, and with customers who routinely asked me to "throw in" freebies, and the list of ****les goes on and on.
I have now retired from my second business, and if I told you how much my annual personal income was during the last few years before I retired, you wouldn't believe me. But I sure as hell didn't manage it working on cars.
So now I'm having my fun of actually reliving the feeling you described of me because I don't have to screw around with the ****les, but just have fun working on my own cars I held onto for eventual restoration which I am diving into as we speak.
I'm now way too damn close to crossing the 70 mark, so if I sound like a grumpy old man who has little patience for nonsense, so be it. I'm really a fun guy with a great sense of humor, but life is too short to waste time wasting time.
I am happy to now come back to this forum (note my sign up year) as I dive into my Corvette re-do, and I enjoy tossing out any advice I can based on my earlier life experience with these cars.
Sorry if my acerbic wit doesn't ring well in some cases, and you truly are a better man than I with how closely you seem to want to work with some of the guys here. I'm afraid that I don't have that kind of patience at this point because my time is short, but I will continue to offer some ideas to help if I can until I am formally invited to shut up. I don't expect to be better or less in expertise than yourself, just to offer extended advice based on my experience that the guys can consider as they do this stuff.

Didn't mean to get personal, but you started it. Just thought you might like some background since you assume to know my mind.

DUB

'Highflight'

As I wrote....at least for me...IT IS ALL GOOD and pass along anything that you feel can help anyone out from your experiences.

Funny thing about this Corvette Forum or any forum I guess is that there can be back stories and verbal conversations made that do not get put on the forum in the detail that actually occurred. so everyone is on the same page.

Nobody can read minds as far as I know. And I do have patience to help others....but I do have my limits on that when I feel that when I am taking time to help someone and I have to keep going over the same thing a half a dozen times or more... it makes me fell like I am not being heard and thus....wasting my time.

I have NO PROBLEM going over something a few times ( 3 or 4)...but when it get to a half a dozen times of running around the same bush...I have my limits adn then I am feeling like I am being played for a fool.

WHICH is NOT the case with forum members Rob, Roger, Will, Dave T., Dave O. Len W., Marc. and MANY other forum members who have called me.

DUB

SB64

Snotty is your word, I can think of a few others. The last picture is that of the car just out of paint. You should know that there is more to be done when a car comes out of paint. Looking at light reflections is not the way things are especially in a picture. I am over the 70 mark and I can relate to the feeling of running out of time . With that in mind I have also come to that point in life where I really don't give a damn or care about people like you and there opinions.. Also you know with guys like you I'm not wasting my time...................Oops there I go again pissing someone off but hey who cares , right!

RVZIO

RobfromME

Good afternoon, All!

I see there's been some discussion since I've been on business travel!
Highflight, I certainly do appreciate your thoughts, and sharing your opinion and experience is most valuable and what the forums are all about! Thank you for the input and consideration to do so!
As Dub mentioned, there is SO much more to what has been discussed. In fact, Dub has been so willing to share his time and experience, and as I've discussed things with him, two things became very apparent; his knowledge of Corvettes is extensive, and he has the ability to teach it despite the difficulties being in two separate places presents. I've tried to put up enough information so that others who were in my position might learn from my mistakes, or get the courage to try something that they can't get help with.
My front and rear bumper, and this job, are things I tried desperately to get done locally or get hope locally. I either got an "I'm not interested...no money in it", I don't have time to help (fair enough...I appreciate the honesty!), or sure, I'll come over at such and such a time, but then they never showed up. Even a regional Corvette guru made promises, but that's as far as it went. Note that in rural Maine, there's no opportunity for learning bodywork unless you go to school full time....not an option when running a business with 20 employees counting on you to keep food on their table as well as your own, and I'm sure you understand that challenge with your experience. It's important to note that I ALWAYS offered to pay for anyone's time....I don't take advantage of people. It was so frustrating to have something I wanted to do, but no one wanted to help. This is my hobby....I'm not looking for someone to do everything for me and then go show off my car. I want to do it, and I appreciate all help.....even if I do it 6X over, that's OK....it's a hobby, I'm not trying to put anyone out of business....no threat of that when it takes me a week what it would take you, Dub, or Porchdog to do in an hour! I want it to be outstanding when I'm done, but I have no expectation of it taking less than a year, or 6 months or whatever time is picked.
I wanted to post my experiences here so that others in my position who felt frustrated or stuck would have another option. Thankfully, Dub took the time and interest to help. It became obvious that he genuinely understands the car and it's nuances, but that he's also interested in passing on knowledge....something that is slowly dying. With help from guys like Dub, new people come into the hobby, learn a few things, get some experience on their own or with others, and the skills and hobbies go on to another generation. The Experimental Aircraft Association has flourished thanks to technical counselors who volunteer their time. Some of the most lovely airplanes at Oshkosh are from first time builders with guys like Dub helping them. I am grateful for his assistance.
Some of what isn't posted is what's most important. The first question Dub asked me was "what are your expectations, and what are your limiting factors?" i.e. cost, time, resources, tools, etc. etc. Once he understood my goals, he shared several methods and materials, and what to expect. It was a HUGE help. And I had to learn some by doing of course....then, I'd have an epiphany and after a couple tries, say "ahhh!, That's what Dub meant!" Just the kind of thing when I was learning to fly. You can read a book all day, and the instructor can talk until he's blue in the face, but you have to have some hands on time to really appreciate the way an airplane behaves. And like a good instructor, Dub was there to provide guidance, and re-direct me when things went wrong or he saw me making mistakes. And he's been a gentleman in every sense of the word. As you suggested, Dub and I have already discussed replacing the rear quarter. However, I told Dub I wanted to learn, and he suggested that if time was not a constraint there'd be something to learn by dissecting this repair a bit more, even if replacing would be the outcome. I elected to do just that, and boy have I learned a lot of why things don't work, and also how my car is built, the materials and their unique characteristics, why we DON'T use bondo, etc. It has been so valuable. And like Dub said, since I'm willing to replace the panel and want to learn, there's no harm in exploring this a bit more and gaining some skills on a part that can be replaced with less angst than, say, a top deck! I may still decide to see if I can fix this, and I realize that risk is involved, and Dub has shared that risk with me just as you have. There's been SO much we've discussed that it would take pages and pages to cover but a fraction of it. I'm going to keep exploring this a bit and post what I find in hopes that there's some tidbits that another member can glean some insight from. I welcome your comments. Dub has also suggested certain things that have worked for him, but he ALWAYS says, "Rob, this is the way I do it now, and have for a while because I found it works best. But, understand that there's many ways to do it, however I can only share with you those things I've had experience with. The other methods, products, etc. have been used very successfully and are highly regarded, but it would be unfair to recommend something I've never tried or something I don't have experience with."
He suggested several other fellows on the forum to discuss things with that he felt had experience with certain products or methods. Thus, Dub truly understands his way isn't the only way, and he constantly stresses that he does things a certain way because they work for him, but he's not against other methods unless he's tried them and found their flaws. He's also said he tried different methods from others he respected, and changed his methods accordingly. I like that he didn't let pride get in the way of learning a new and better way.
Regarding RVIZO; he's also been a fantastic forum member for this endeavor. He's been where I am, and had the courage to share his experiences. Take the paint....he was as excited as I was to see that it was going to work and got a picture up before he was completely done. Just like me with my front bumper....I was so tickled with my first step (let alone walking or running), that I posted my work in progress which is my latest pic of my bumper. I've got a LONG way to go, but since I decided to press forward with this repair and other things, thanks to Dub's help, and RVIZO's sharing his success. I decided to wait and finish sand, etc. when I'm doing the whole car to save on material and cost. My reason for posting a 30% done bumper was to show other poor saps like me that it CAN be done...you just need to have time and patience to learn as you go, and understand you'll make mistakes. Then, when I've got to a point I can't figure it out, I've had Dub's help and a new path forward.
So, Highflight, please understand I do appreciate any and all input. I can then make an informed decision, and I'm willing to live with my choices. So, thank you....it IS appreciated. I share the above so you understand a little bit more of a much larger picture. And regarding RVIZO's car, it really is a remarkable job.....look at where he started and where he ended up. And he's not even done with that paint yet! And if he's like me, he's already talked to Dub about how to fix it long before you or I saw it! I am indebted to RVIZO for sharing, and I'll be very proud if after I paint the worst I have to do is get rid of a bit of orange peel! Hell, I'd be lucky.....I'm figuring I'll have to do more than that! Besides, his paint looks better than a 2016 Black and Black Vette I saw at a car show last weekend that was a factory paint job! He had the courage to not only do something he'd never done, but keep at it and succeed, then post it for all the world to see, even knowing it wasn't done. I hope you can see his hard work and effort, and appreciate what he's done.
Thanks for the input. Truly. But please understand that Dub and RVIZO are fine fellows; and you are correct....there's damn few Dubs who share their time and knowledge, and admit what they don't know as well as what they do! I wish there were more fellows like him.

All my best,
Rob

Highflight

Jeez, I wasn't giving an opinion, just an observation. I was neither making a challenge nor trying to prove anything.
Water sanding only fixes so much orange peel before you get back to base coat. Orange peel that heavily wavy is difficult to remove, even with a lot of standing. I could have given you some pointers with spraying technique and saved you a lot of time, that's all I was saying.

I was in the business when lacquer was the thing and urethanes were just being introduced. It was a bit of a learning curve, but I fell in love with urethane paints once I developed my own techniques to be able to fool people and think I was still using lacquer. To do that, you can't have my of the orange peel that is indicative of urethane paint, and that's the kind of technique help I could have helped you with.

I guess I'm more of a technician than I am a people person. I just speak truth to what I see and in no way intended to offend.
You actually appeared to intend to offend me, but I can assure you that nothing pisses me off anymore. Except the wife. But I'm now hard of hearing so that helps some there.
Carry on.

SB64

Well hell, let me jump and cause my brand of trouble. I believe that was your opening statement and it looks like you caused some trouble. I guess that was your intent. Now you play the victim and say it was my intent to offend you. Nice! Your on the forum for what reason???

RVZIO

Highflight

OMG, man. Chill.

"My brand of trouble" is just my humorous way to say that I am going to offer some different advice from what was already out there. It was just an alternate way of doing things which people are free to ignore, and that's the "trouble" I referred to. You know, "devil's advocate" sort of thing.
Didn't know I was claiming victim status. I am in fact the ultimate non-victim. I am firmly convinced, and it's one of my own axioms that I live by, that 99% of all the troubles that each of us experience in our lives are caused either by our making our own wrong decisions, or by some inaction where action was required. That axiom applies to each of us throughout our lives. See it everyday.
The reason I'm on the forum is because I have finally gotten the time to work a couple or so full days every week restoring my '75 Roadster. Living the retirement dream and all.
Having been in the business for about 25 years, I think there are some things I might be able to contribute. But also having been OUT of the business for as long as I was in it, I'm not too proud to sometimes ask some advice from those more up to date on new materials and/or sources for stuff I might need. Hope that answers your question.

Lighten up. Find some humor in everything. Being near the same age, neither you or I will likely be here 15 years from now. No reason to get worked up about stuff. In the end, we are all part of the All, but stuff is just stuff.

porchdog

after 40+ years of this i have experienced the highs and lows . i still enjoy working on corvettes but i get the most pleasure from helping a hobbyist with their project. i dont expect them to understand all i try to tell them . i just keep at it until we get it straight. after our move next year i hope to build a new shop much smaller than the one i have now. hopefully i will be able to do some video work of my next restomod project . until then there are no dumb questions except the one not asked .

Parkit

I just joined and going through this thread was one of the first things I did.
I really enjoyed seeing what non profesionals can do and look forward to asking an unlimited number of dumb questions

SB64

I think it best that I stay out of the paint and body section. This section seems to have plenty of experts who can really help all of us when needed. Opinions aside, you do learn a lot when exploring the world of body work and painting. I thank all of those folks for their expertise especially Porchdog and of course Dub.

Highflight

Nah, hell no. You're good. It appears that my acerbic wit and directness doesn't fit here, and it's not like I can offer anything that isn't already here.
Y'all have fun.
From here on, I'll just ask questions and let others handle answers.