ErikwithAK01

I am currently snatching up good sales for parts on my list, but I'm not sure about a few things yet, and the quantity of data available is mind boggeling! I could really use some been-there-done-that type tribal knowledge here.

I am doing cam only right now (can't talk the wife into both at once ) but I will add heads next year, and they will probably be PRC as cast 225cc aftermarket castings; however, I want to do this with reliability in mind, as well as ease of installation, both now and in the future. Therefore I have made some additions that I feel are necessary (like the ARP hardware).

The car has about 97,000 miles, so I am about to replace every single fluid in the car ahead of the install as well, since I'm rounding 100K soon. I'm also adding a B&M pn:70264 trans oil cooler at the same time (trans got up to 217f the other day doing 30 rolls ).

Currently my list of items for my cam swap is...

-Ed Curtis Street Sweeper HT .228/.232 - .611/.600 - 111 lsa
-Springs, locks, retainers in Ti (matched set, comes with cam)
-Push rods (matched set, comes with cam)
-Rocker trunion bearing upgrade
-Lifters (???????????????)
-LS2 lifter trays
-ATI Super Damper (in stock diameter)
-Complete LS2 timing set
-Melling high pressure (not high volume) oil pump pn:10295
-GM factory MLS head gaskets (since I'm an '01)
-NEW gaskets for water pump, front timing cover, front main seal, intake manifold, throttle body.
-ARP crank bolt
-ARP head studs (???????????????????)
-Pushrod checker (eventhough I'll do EO/IC as well to double check values)
-A high quality torque wrench
-An LS specific valve spring compressor (anyone got one they like?)
-Flywheel locking tool (anyone have positive experiences?)

The last parts I am having a hard time figuring out, are the proper ARP head stud kit for my 2001 LS1, and figuring out what is a good lifter to put in this engine....if it was a gen-1 SBC, I could tell you 3 off the top of my head, but I've never done an LS1 so I've been researching.

I have found a lot of conflicting information...WOW, but my research is pointing me towards the Morel-6504 (says same as 5315, but the 6504 is GEN-3 specific now. I'm not sure what changed), but I've also recently come across info that says this actually might not be as robust a unit as I thought it to be.

So now I am lost, and asking opinions on my lifter choice. I want to have good quality, better than LS7 lifters, but I'm not convinced I need the huge expense, and added valvetrain weight of a high dollar link bar setup either. My cam does have .611 lift, so my lifters will be doing a little extra duty, and I don't wanna go back in there and fish em' out ever again either, so they have to be quality...Just not $500++ for lifters quality

Please help! Also, if anyone has anything else to add to the list (parts, ideas, tools, etc..) please post it up

cv67

if it were me use GM lifters, no need for head studs at all - spend on a good water pump instead.

neutron82

stay away from comps trunnion kit, they are prone to premature wear... straub makes a nice bushing kit that many people are using to replace the comp kit with... I would also suggest a beefy single timing chain like the c5r, they are far more robust than the double rollers that use tiny links... head studs are also not really needed since you are staying n/a but a good set of arp head bolts would not be a bad idea, better than oem and not a ton of money

ErikwithAK01

I'm doing the head studs because I am going to do heads next year, and it will be easier on me AND the block to torque down and install heads on studs at least twice I reeeeeally don't wanna bung threads in my block.

Do you think the LS2 timing set isn't robust enough for my application? I will be running an ATI damper, so the chain won't be taking much beating, and the LS2 unit is notably more stout than the stock piece.

If I get a C5R chain, what timing gears would I buy (almost 100K on the stock set, so I should replace it all anyways). I've heard good things about the cloyes heavy single hex adjust, but haven't researched it yet...

93Polo

Looks like you are doing HPDEs, a LS2 chain would likely be fine but I would spring for C5R chain given the rev changes and engine braking of being on track, stock sprockets are fine. Cloyes is a nice piece I have one in my car from the prior owner, their customer service is great. If you don't need to adjust the cam timing, it isn't needed.

I would go with Morel drop ins for the lifters.

Since you are ordering heads, I would make sure they are clearanced for 3/8" pushrods and order the pushrods from Tick. If you want to go all out and are running HPDEs, Manton or Smith Brothers, 3/8" oil restricted pushrods.

I am on a Melling pump.

cv67

If youre swapping heads youre better off using bolts just putting it out there.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...ifferance.588/

neutron82

nothing wrong with studs, if you have the money for them by all means go for it... the chain takes more of a beating than you may think, just imagine every time the engine rolls over the constant yanking that is exerted on the chain and then imagine that at 7k rpms... the more aggressive the cam is and the stiffer the valve springs are the harsher it is on the chain... in my opinion an extra $100 for a chain that can handle anything you can throw at it is well worth the peace of mind... you can run the stock gears with the c5r chain, I've never used the cloyes gears but personally I don't like the idea on a street driven car... once installed you likely aren't going to be advancing and retarding your cam timing and what happens if it comes loose and throws things all out of whack... on a race motor that gets inspected, tested and tuned for all kinds of conditions, torn apart, and rebuilt all the time is a different situation and in that case might make more sense but that's just my opinion

ErikwithAK01

Nice call on the Straub kit! That looks like a solid upgrade; same with the C5R chain. This is great, keep it comin' please

A few questions and comments so far...

Does anyone know the part numbers for the stock 2001 LS1 timing gear, and sprocket?

What is the function of running 3/8'ths push rods? I am also getting a matched set with my cam kit though.

I do not do HPDE, but I run hard on the street (it sees at least one 120mph run a week in good weather, and 100mph daily).

Also, Cuisinartvette, I read your posted URL, and there is nothing in there I could find pertaining to head studs, or bolts....for as long as I've been wrenching, it has always been that studs are superior to bolts in every way. Plus it makes install a breeze, and I can obviously reuse them since I'll prohably have the heads off a few times in the future.

vettenuts

Larger OD pushrods will stiffen the valve train. The standard aftermarket (5/16") will flex, especially at higher RPM and can result in valve bounce, lifter roller damage and cam lobe damage. Unfortunately, the 3/8" OD likely will not fit in a stock head or some aftermarket heads without machining. Many use the 11/32" Mantons instead noting that Manton uses OAL to measure length as opposed to gauge length used by Trend. Comp pushrods are made by Trend. Larger OD pushrods are on the slow side of the valve train, so the weight difference isn't as big of an issue. Here is a read: Pushrod Stiffness

Note: Make sure you get a pushrod brush as well so you can thoroughly clean the inside of the pushrod prior to installation.

The GM timing set is actually made by Cloyes. I would simply get a new Cloyes set. If you want to ensure the cam is set correctly, get the Cloyes Hex-adjust and degree the cam. You will also need to verify PTV while you are setting things up.

I would also get the timing chain dampener. This is a relatively inexpensive part that prevents chain wrap in the upper RPM, especially when coming down in RPM between shifts. RDE makes a nice one: RDI Timing Chain Dampener. If your block isn't drilled you can go with the Trick Flow version.

With the amount of lift you are running, I wouldn't run the stock rockers if it were my car. They will scrub near the top of the lift and can cause issues later. Since your first post mentions reliability, I would go with Yella Terra rockers and make sure to set them up correctly. Texas Speed is also introducing a new steel rocker but not sure they are in production yet. If you stick with the stock rockers, you should set the wipe pattern and then measure for pushrods. With that lift, it is likely the mounting height will need to be reduced and not shimmed. This will require a new rocker stand that can be machined. Here is how to set up Yella Terra rockers, but stock would be similar only rather than shimming you will likely reduced the installed height of the rocker: Yella Terra Setup - AFR Heads

Personally, I would go with the ARP studs if you have the funds. They will be easier on the block with the second head removal you are planning. Make sure to use the ARP thread lube for consistent clamping force.

The ATI harmonic damper requires precise measurements on the hub, which may need to be honed to bring it within the interference fit range. This is critical. The ATI pin kit is a great option since the hub is already keyed.

Not sure how you plan to double check the pushrods with EO/IC, but if it is counting bolt turns that is a waste of time.

As for lifters, I would opt for Morel lifters that are taller since they will be moving farther up and down in the lifter bore. There has been some history of lifter oiling issues with standard length lifters in the LS1. Call and speak with Chris Straub about this, he if very familiar with the issue and knows the Morel's personally.

Smoken1

I went with timing chain and gear set
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-no-equal.html

93Polo

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...stiffness.html

I thought he posted the gains but can not find it. The short of it is 5/16 can flex at RPM giving up power/stability.

11/32 Mantons work great but as you are not tracking your car for a half hour at a time, the oil restricted push rods in my opinion are not a big bonus. If you are using a drop in lifter the preload range is wide enough that a 1 piece pushrod can be used.

A 3/8" Tick pushrod will cost less than a 11/32" or 3/8" Manton. I have only found 11/32" in Manton. Stock and some aftermarket heads must be clearanced to run a 3/8" diameter pushrod. If you are doing heads, it can be investigated during parts selection.

Agreed with talking to Straub on the lifters, he is a wealth of knowledge.

My car is currently getting buttoned up at a friend's place, his car has:

CamMotion Titan 227/232
Morel Drop ins
243 heads untouched
BTR springs
Straub Trunion upgrade
Comp 5/16" push rods
Dynatech 1 3/4
Fast 90/LS2 TB
ATI 10%
ARP crank bolt/Studs
LS2 chain

A year on the car with 4-5 HPDEs and the car is running strong

ErikwithAK01

I'm worried the Yella Terra rockers would add too much weight to my valvetrain, aren't they SUPER heavy over the nose? Or do the shaft mounted ones even add much weight to the valvetrain? If I pull the trigger on these rockers, do I need to improve other aspects of the vavletrain to accomadate for them?

A bit more info. As I am on the stock A4, I probably won't be turning any more R's than 6750, since the 4L60E doesn't like high strung engine speeds much. Street car only.

Also, I'm not sold yet on extra large pushrods, especially since my shift points won't be real high; I really don't want to have the heads machined for this job, no money there for it, and I can't justify the cost of breaking them down, cleaning them, and NOT doing at least a performance valve job...but again, no money for head work yet :/ I'll wait for next day air push rod, but that's about it. I'm using my dad's garage for this, so I can't use up his lift forever.

When I check rockers I find zero lash, and degree the rotation I get till the rocker is tightened down all the way. The number of turns tell you how much preload is on your pushrods. All on the base circle of course.

I have a 14" gear head lathe, so I can machine out the hub on the ATI Damper easily at home if it is a couple thousandths.

What is a good dampener? I have been looking at the ones that sit between the gears, and basicly spreads the chain from in between. Also, how does the Trick Flow adapter mount? Is it retained by one of the gears???

93Polo

Yes they are heavier and a heavier rocker requires more spring.

Some reading to help you decide.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...cker-arms.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...s-welcome.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...rod-holes.html

neutron82

the 11/32 manton pushrods mentioned above are very nice, I have been running those for awhile... not only are they larger in diameter than your standard 5/16 pushrods but they are .120 wall thickness compared to .080 which is pretty substantial so they are far less likely to flex... they are much beefier than the 5/16 comps that I used to have, you can tell by the weight alone but as mentioned above they are on the slow end of the valvetrain so that really isn't an issue... they do have a smaller oil hole than the standard comp pushrods which to my understanding will slightly raise the pressure of the oil flowing through it (not the actual engine oil pressure)... as far as I know they are also the largest pushrods that will fit in ls heads without machining for clearance... the guys at manton are great to deal with too, I highly recommend them if you are interested in those pushrods

93Polo

TFS timing chain Damper:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#&gid=1&pid=1


This reminds me absolutely replace the cam retaining plate. The gasket gets compressed on install and has leaked on reinstall.

If your block is drilled for the damper the options are an original LS6 part which Katech sells for ~$100, or
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-dampener.html

The TFS adapter I believe only uses the retainer plate for mounting so your block would not have to be drilled but I have not had one in my mind, so I would verify.

neutron82

good call on the retainer plate... I believe they have an updated design that uses tapered torx bolts instead of the regular bolts... so you will have to buy the plate and those 4 torx bolts, unfortunately you can't buy the gasket by itself

93Polo

You can by the new and late design.

From a topic DietCoke started on Ls1tech:

Clevite makes one (victor reinz rebadge), felpro makes one, the GM one, I'm sure there's others.

The victor part# is B32270 for countersunk bolts or B31822 for regular bolts.

He also stated not replacing it caused an oil pressure leak.

The torque spec on the counter sunk bolts is less than the regular bolts.


Honestly on a Auto streetcar, I'd likely run Comp 5/16 pushrods and stock rockers on a Straub trunion upgrade. However that is me and my risk, cost, benefit analysis. I won't argue larger pushrods and YT rockers have an advantage.

ErikwithAK01

Problem is if I spend more on heavy roller rockers, I'll need to spend more on beefier push rods, likely more on heavier duty springs, probably more on lifters as well, etc, etc. My build will push out too far, and my window for shop floor space will disappear until summer next year. If it is necessity, then yeah, I'm gonna do it, but if some of this high dollar Gucci brand stuff like the YT roller rockers, or Johson lifters, can be held off till I do heads next season, then I'd rather do that. My car doesn't run in the rain, so I have plenty of winter downtime here in the Pacific Northwest I only see about 6K (hard driven street miles) a year.

handyandy1496

I tried a ls2 gear with ls2 chain. Like everybody else on ls1tech I found this combo very sloppy. Not good enough to even degree the cam in my opinion. chucked the chain and got the IWIS German made ls2 chain. Turned out to be a perfect fit and tension. Got my cam numbers right on the money. I also compensated 1.5 degrees so if it should wear in a bit Ill be getting closer to my ideal cam timing not further away. Runs like a bear hunting for traction. lol.
I was on the fence with lifters too. Heard horror stories about ls7's and worse with the cheep morals that are sold through other company's with different names. One guy I know had a lifter wheel fall off grenading everything. So I went with the expensive super tight, link bar, .750 wheel,
limited travel racing type. Not to be used with over 30w oils. They run almost like solids so they do make more rpm and hp. Imo worth the paycheck for piece of mind.

ErikwithAK01

I like what I have read, now, concerning the C5R chain with the stock crank/cam sprockets, so I will run that setup, thanks That elite chain drive is WAY more robust than I need. GM never broke a single C5R chain endurance racing in ALMS, I don't think my street setup will either Maybe if I slap on a Ysi!

I have an email in to Ed @ Flowtech, so I will get his official take on the rockers, push rods, etc, etc. Until then, those Morel 6504 drop ins look like the ticket for my fairly mild street setup, and failures are real uncommon with those.

So far I like the 11/32" push rods, but I will probably upgrade to 3/8" when I do heads, I'll drill up the holes myself when the time comes (I drill on airplanes for a living, I've got the drilling into aluminum thing down real good haha).

I'm reeeeeally hoping that Ed gets back to me and says the Straub kit will be enough on stock rockers (fingers crossed) for this cam. If I have to spend another $500-800 more on this swap, I will have to push it out through the end of the year+ :{

Can I run the Edelbrock split timing cover with the Melling 10295, and the C5R setup and stock replacement sprockets?