crawfish333

Warning NCRS type questions.

I am getting some interior work done on my 72 coupe. The guy doing the work for me is an active NCRS member and judge who has built top flight cars in the past. I wanted him to install new carpet in my car. After he looked at my car, he called me and suggested that I should not replace the carpet because what I have in the car is original and not in bad shape. It is slightly faded in spots and has a small tear. He added that my entire car is amazingly original and may be a candidate for a bow tie car. I wanted to have my car flight judged eventually but I did not consider this driver car to be a candidate for Bowtie car. His brother and business partner (but admittedly less of a NCRS type) had previously told me that my carpet was not original, that is why I decided to replace it.

My car is pretty original with the exception of master cylinder, windshield, seat covers (although I still have the old ones) and reproduction Dewitt radiator. I will soon add a new exhaust system. Everything works pretty well on the car and the car doesn’t smoke or leak oil. The engine did get painted chevy orange when I pulled it to replace main seal and gaskets.

That said, I really don’t think my car is original enough for Bowtie judging, so I had hoped to get it get it flight judged after a year or so. He recommended that I take it be judged at an upcoming local (October) meet here in DFW to see what they think about if the car is a candidate for bowtie judging.

So I guess I do not really know how to proceed; making it a nice driver and trying to eventually achieve top flight status or preserving everything regardless of the cosmetics.

Would new carpet hurt my chances to eventually attain top flight status?

I have to tell him how to move forward pretty soon.

dmaxx3500

have him ck it more,nd if he feels its org,go for it,there only org 1 time

Faster Rat

You are at the crossroads...do I leave it alone or do I restore it? The NCRS (National Corvette RESTORERS Society) is into RESTORING cars back to the condition and correctness they were in...the day they left the factory. If you want an NCRS Top Flight Award, you will need to spend a lot of time and money. NCRS says they are into preservation, but I believe only insofar as studying other people's supposedly original cars to expand upon their knowledge base and improve their judging criteria. They do offer the Star and Bowtie awards for originality. Bloomington offers their Survivor award. Both may or may not benefit you financially when it comes time to sell.

Why did you buy the car? Are you willing to drive a worn out and mechanically unreliable car...just to claim how original it is? Is it a particularly rare or desirable example? I am asking, because I made the decision 13 years ago to slowly restore mine.

Mr D.

If you plan to have it judged than following the advice of an active NCRS member and judge can't be all that bad.

By not doing it today you can always do it later, you can't reverse what you did today.

Don Rickles

crawfish333

Actually, my car is quite reliable. It is a 1 owner car and only has about 42k miles. The engine does not use oil and the transmission shifts smoothly. I replaced the main seal and pan gasket because it leaked oil from sitting up and not being driven much. It is not a rare car at all being a SB A/T. I mainly would like to make it more like a new car. I got my drivers license in 1972 and wanted this kind of car back then. The car is only an occassional weekend driver that I plan to put in local shows. I would like to eventually have it judged though. When I bought it, it was already pretty nice, and I have been improving it as I go. I will probably never sell it.

Faster Rat

Bingo. Restore it to your heart's content, but try to do it correctly and keep the Chinese crap to a minimum. Notice I did not suggest that you modify or re-engineer it.

Alan 71

Hi c,
I think it might be a good idea to enter your car to be Flight Judged at the October Frisco judging meet you mention.
You may be surprised how well your car does in Flight Judging. (People OFTEN are.) The results may also have an affect on how you proceed with it.
At the same time your car could be considered for Bowtie Judging. If it's accepted for Bowtie Judging you might find that's something you might want to do.
One disappointing thing is that Bowtie Judging only takes place at the NCRS National Convention…. and you just missed an opportunity to have it done in San Antonio.
Points to ponder.
Regards,
Alan

crawfish333

Thanks for all of the sage advice.

I think I may go ahead and leave the carpet as is for now. I am leaning towards going ahead with flight judging in Frisco to see how far I have to go.

I will get the judging sheets (after the judges stop laughing ) and proceed forward.

I am getting to know every inch of this car. That cannot be a bad thing.

Don Rickles

Craw,
Read this below for some guidance. Faster's advice on NCRS NOT being into preservation is simply not correct...Restoration AND Preservations is their mission.





NCRS Top Flight Award® Back to Top

This award was created by the National Corvette Restorers Society in 1974 to recognize cars that have been preserved or restored to the highest level of achievement through the NCRS Flight Judging Process. These cars have to achieve 94% or above of 4500 available points to earn "NCRS Top Flight" in a rigorous judging process of Operations Check, Exterior, Interior, Mechanical and Chassis Judging. As of today 21,491 have gone through NCRS Flight Judging in attempting to earn this important mark of superiority, 15,960 have actually earned it.



NCRS STAR AND NCRS CHEVROLET BOWTIE Award Back to Top

NCRS Star and Bowtie Awards are earned only at National Conventions by unrestored cars successfully judged and voted to be historically and educationally significant in any one or more of four areas (Interior, Exterior, Mechanical, and Chassis). The award is intended to recognize the car and encourage the owner to retain and display the car in its present condition for the enjoyment and continuing educational benefit of our membership. NCRS One-, Two- or Three-Star Awards are achieved by a successful judging and voting in any one, two or three of the four listed areas. The NCRS Chevrolet Bowtie Award is achieved by a successful judging and voting in all four areas. Subsequent to this judging, the NCRS Chevrolet 5-Star Bowtie Award may be achieved as described in item #12 of the NCRS Judging Reference Manual. Only 316 Corvettes have received this prestigious award.



NCRS DUNTOV Mark of Excellence Award® Back to Top

This award was created by the National Corvette Restorers Society in 1985, in honor of Mr. Zora Arkus-Duntov, long-time Chief Engineer for the Chevrolet Corvette, who retired from General Motors in 1975. The Duntov Award recognizes individuals for the restoration and preservation of 1953 -1974 Corvettes. To achieve this coveted award, an owner must attain a judging score of at least 97% out of 100 % based on an original "as manufactured" standard at a National or Regional NCRS event; as well as present the car for a rigorous performance test of all vehicle mechanical components and functions, all of which must operate as those of a new car, without a single failure. Finally, the car must again score at least 97%, at a National NCRS Convention, to receive the Duntov Award. The process of achieving the Duntov Award requires attendance at a minimum of three events, and must be completed within a three year period. Only 1,055 Corvettes have achieved the NCRS Duntov Mark of Excellence Award.

Faster Rat

How noble of the NCRS. I thought long and hard about this before beginning my total mechanical restoration. I waited for 35 years to have the time and money to buy the exact car I always wanted. I guess if I had enough money to afford two cars, I could keep one as a Bow Tie car or Survivor, just so that others could study it to further their own ambitions. I brought the car to a top Bloomington judge, an expert in Survivor cars. He told me that my car might qualify, but that decision would be up to me. He is also the one that finally convinced me to finish the car cosmetically so that I can feel better about it's appearance.

joewill

you would have to look at the judging sheets and look how points are obtained. flight award and bowtie award are two different things but i think you are using them interchangeably.

there are multiple tiers of the top flight and bow tie awards.

you are going to lose lots of points on your radiator, glass, tires, engine paint, seats, exhaust, and probably several other things you might not have as typical factory. and you might find out there is no way to make anything more than the bottom tier of those awards.

since the bowtie award is only awarded at national conventions, then you can't go for that in a regional. if you want flight judging at a regional, it is OK to have new carpet, as long as it is typical factory production you will get carpet points. ask the NCRS dudes where they get their carpet.

ed427vette

If you decide to change your carpet make sure you remove the plastic seat belt grommets. They only repro them in black and the repros are made out of rubber which is nothing like the original plastic pieces.

7T1vette

Whatever you decide to do, make sure it is because that is what YOU want....not because it will impress someone else or earn some award that is not important to you. Many folks get started down that 'restoration' road only to find that it is fraught with differences of opinion about what NEEDS to be done, functionally unnecessary change-out of parts so that it "conforms", and lots of downtime where the car can't be operated.

Do it because YOU want to. Think about it; decide what is best for you; and head down that path without looking backward or sideways.

hunt4cleanair

Crawfish...sound advice here from Alan and Frisco is the place to have it looked at it.

At the Frisco Regional, each section will be reviewed and an informal judgment recommended whether it is Bowtie worthy and to pursue it further. For example, a painted engine, pulled for servicing with a nonstandard radiator in the mechanical section (engine compartment) may result in the determination that if Bowtie judged, it may fail that particular section.

In regards to carpet...its judgment is a catch 22! Replacing carpet does not mean "more points." If new carpet is determined to be judged service replacement it may lose originality points. In contrast, original carpet may lose condition points. That is why your friend/mechanic cautioned you about changing it out merely for cosmetic purposes.

Hope this helps!

Alan 71

Hi C,
Another option for you might be to have your car be used at a NCRS Chapter "Tech Session" and Judging School.

A Chapter would schedule a Tech Session to which you would bring you car and it would be 'judged' in an 'informal' way, but using the judging sheets from the 5 sections that are normally used…. Operations, Exterior, Interior, Mechanical, and Chassis.

This is done to help the owner get an idea just how his car would do at a scheduled Judging Meet…..and to give judges more experience looking at a wide range of cars.

If you thought you might be interested in this you could begin by contacting your local Chapter in order to let their contact person know you're interested in doing this.

This is often a pleasant and informative activity for everyone. Maybe for you too?
Regards,
Alan

Easy Mike

Revi

Bring it to Frisco as is. You'll do fine. I'd have it judged before spending any more money on it.

I personally would rather see a beat up original car more than a restored show queen.

You mention exhaust above, you can spend $800 on a Gardner "repro" exhaust or you can spend $200 on Billy Bob's exhaust and lose the same amount of points because neither is original.

Red86Z51

Alan,

Thank you for sharing this information, I did not know this option was even available. I have a very original, unmolested 17K mile (early) 1976 that I have been pondering going the judging route on. It needs bumper covers and like crawfish's car also has some carpet fade. Going this route would before doing any work to it would seem to be very instrumental in obtaining the information I need to decide what needs to be done to achieve maximum points in the different levels in judging.

Again, thanks for sharing, I'm going to look into this!!

Dave

Don Rickles

Craw,

Your first post kind of gives the answer.....No reason to beat around the bush.

If I'm understanding correctly, your engine has been removed, serviced, painted, and reinstalled. This would not qualify or earn the Mechanical section Star. In addition, you report the seat covers have been replaced, this alone MIGHT knock out the interior Star?

So, what I'm trying to rely is that you might be able to earn one or perhaps two Stars, the car is out of the Bowtie Award.....(all four Stars or areas must be earned to make up the Bowtie).

I've always said, that if I had a car worthy of just one Star, I'd go the distance, there are simply not that many out there that can.

As posted above, your combining Flight Judging and Bowtie Judging. Best advice I can give, that has been said above, is to have it looked at BEFORE going any further. If the exhaust is the original that would be something I'd definitely leave alone!

Ok, now, where you might have some fun and success would be Bloomington, as they have several "levels" of originality judging awards.

Best of luck in whatever direction you choose.