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AS I said twice before, yea, the Porsche came in too hot.
But @20 seconds, the Corvette starts to loose traction under braking, the Porsche starts moving to the right looking for an opening but he was going too fast.
If the Corvette didn't have that bauble, he would have been a few feet further up the track, might have been hit anyway might not.
If the Corvette would have had to make one more correction, the Porsche may have had an opportunity to present himself and they could have had a good ol drag race to the next corner.
I don't (and I don't think anyone) disagrees with your assessment that the Corvette had a slip on the previous corner. I'll even add to that, the Porsche's were a decent amount faster, and were on much fresher tires. The Porsches were clearly frustrated that even with the faster cars, it is just hard to pass on that track.
All of that said, the rest of us struggle to reconcile everything else you are saying plus all else that happened
-You said the Porsche came in to hot (most of us agree)
-The Porsche driver said he was at fault
-Race Control penalized the Porsche.
-The Corvette took the predictable line through the corner, and the Porsche driver had to know where he was going to be
-Passing in that corner without contact and winning a draf down the straight is highly unlikely
-These are factory drivers near the top of their profession. If you go into the corner thinking the only way you make it out is if the other guy makes a mistake, you are doing it wrong.
So, I think some of us are just struggling to see how the facts make this the Corvette partially at fault or just an ordinary "racing incident". I'm certainly not going to say it is intentional, I'm not inside the driver's head, but it was stupid,bad driving, with a very low success percentage and certainly falls under the "avoidable contact" that IMSA uses as its term for driving that isn't tolerated and gets you penalized, as opposed to a "racing incident" that doesn't get you penalized. IMSA radio called it "disgusting".
No need to jump all over Bill - he's offering up a view in the "racers mind".
Am I pi$$ed that Porsche took out a Vette - hell yeah but do I think it was an order from the team manager to the driver? Not for a minute.
This is a young driver trying to make a name for himself - he owned up to his mistake - he saw a window took his shot and failed.....badly. Pretty much everyone who has watched the incident has stated that fact, but that's the beauty of hindsight.
In the end racing is an entertainment product - IMSA isn't going to do a damn thing about it, besides the stop and go penalty it already handed out. It is getting people fired up and talking about there product - they like that.
It's a long season and the Corvette team won't forget this.
CORVETTE RACING AT LONG BEACH: Second Straight Overall Win for Wayne Taylor Racing
Gavin, Milner second in GTLM despite late-race contact while leading
Gavin, Milner retain GTLM points lead with two wins and runner-up in 2016
Dekra Green Award for No. 4 Chevrolet Corvette C7.R
First Corvette DP podium sweep since Sebring 2015
LONG BEACH, Calif. (April 16, 2016) – Wayne Taylor Racing won its second straight race at Long Beach to lead an overall sweep for the Corvette Daytona Prototype program, and Corvette Racing’s Oliver Gavin and Tommy Milner extended their GT Le Mans (GTLM) championship lead with a runner-up finish in their No. 4 Chevrolet Corvette C7.R at Saturday’s Bubba Burger Sports Car Grand Prix.
Jordan and Ricky Taylor won by 2.958 seconds in their No. 10 Konica Minolta Corvette DP with Action Express Racing’s Christian Fittipaldi and Joao Barbosa second in the No. 5 Mustang Sampling Corvette DP. Eric Curran and Dane Cameron finished third in Action Express’ No. 31 Whelen Engineering/Team Fox Corvette DP. It’s the first 1-2-3 finish for Corvette DPs since the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring in 2015.
The GTLM race was a Corvette 1-2 for most of the race’s second half. Milner and Gavin appeared headed for their third straight victory to open the International Motor Sports Association (IMSA) season until Milner was hit from behind by Fred Makowiecki’s Porsche entering the final turn with two minutes left in the race. Despite the contact, Milner recovered to finish second.
Corvette Racing was going for the 100th victory in program history. Starting fourth in class, Gavin had to pit 30 minutes into the race with a suspected left-front tire puncture. It changed the strategy of the race with Milner having to go 70 minutes on a tank of E20. He took the lead with 53 minutes remaining. The race’s only full-course caution erased an 11-second lead over teammate Antonio Garcia in the No. 3 Chevrolet Corvette, which Jan Magnussen qualified and started from fifth.
The restart saw the two Corvettes nearly nose-to-tail for the better part of 20 minutes. Unfortunately Garcia’s Corvette spun at Turn 4 with nine minutes left. He made it back to pit lane but the car couldn’t be repaired. He and Magnussen finished ninth.
The race stayed green until the finish despite the incident in the final corner that knocked Milner from the lead. The No. 4 Corvette did win the Dekra Green Award, which goes to the GTLM car that best combines performance with efficiency.
In the Prototype race, Ricky Taylor made an opening-lap, Turn 1 pass stick as he and brother Jordan led all but three of the race’s 75 laps. What’s more, the Wayne Taylor Racing and No. 5 Action Express Corvette DPs ran 1-2 for 57 laps including the final 36. Fittipaldi had qualified on pole position.
Ryan Hunter-Reay and Marc Goossens placed sixth for Visit Florida Racing in the No. 90 VisitFlorida.com Corvette DP.
The Taylors have now been either first or second the last three years at Long Beach. Cameron set the fastest lap of the race in the Action Express No. 31 Corvette DP for the second straight year. Unofficially, the Mustang Sampling Corvette DP has moved into first place in the IMSA Prototype Championship while the Whelen Engineering Corvette DP moves into second.
The next race for Corvette Racing and Corvette DPs is the Continental Tire Monterey Grand Prix from Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca on Sunday, May 1.
CORVETTE RACING QUOTES
TOMMY MILNER, NO. 4 CHEVROLET CORVETTE C7.R – FINISHED SECOND IN GTLM: "It was fairly well under control until I had a wiggle apparently. But that wiggle was tiny. I just got wrecked basically. Two Porsches running nose to tail… it is pretty clear what happened there. It is pretty disappointing that this is the kind of racing we have here where we are better than that for sure. At the end of the day, it could have been worse for us for sure. Second place is obviously great points. Oliver was unlucky there with the puncture (tire) and it was looking pretty bleak for us for a little bit there. But with the yellow, and we were at the right spot there at the end. There were very difficult conditions there after the yellow flag I was locking fronts all over the place and then the tires came back and they were good. Then with three to go, just taken out. It’s disappointing but certainly could have been a lot worse. I don't mind finishing second if it is clean and it happens the right way, but that wasn't the right way. It hurts a little bit to be second in this case the way it happened, but again, end of the day second place is great points for us. We can hold our heads high that we raced as hard as we could today, the right way."
OLIVER GAVIN, NO. 4 CHEVROLET CORVETTE C7.R – FINISHED SECOND IN GTLM: "When you look back on today at the end of the year, we would hope that this was one where we ended up getting a good result from it. Yes, we felt like we got robbed of the victory. But with the puncture we had early-on and the pit stop, Tommy having to save fuel, the tires only lasting for so long… for us to come away with second place is a very good result. If you had asked us after the pit stop or told us we were going to finish second, yes we would definitely taken that. It is a little hard to swallow right now. We felt like we were going to win and we were robbed of that."
ANTONIO GARCIA, NO. 3 CHEVROLET CORVETTE C7.R – FINISHED NINTH IN GTLM: “It was not the outcome we expected. We played our strategy very smart. With the pace we had early, we showed that we had to do something. We didn’t have the fastest car but we were – up until the yellow – first and second. For sure the first yellow helped the 4 car stay in the lead. The Porsches were very fast. If I wanted to stay ahead of them, I needed to have the best drive of my career. There was a lot of pressure from them. Maybe there were some taps but nothing special. Then a mistake happened. I can’t say I felt contact. We probably need to view the replay but I was driving the whole race on the limit. That’s what happens on a street circuit sometimes. It can bite you at some point. I wasn’t going to be happy to finish second, so I was doing all I could to try to win the race.”
JAN MAGNUSSEN, NO. 3 CHEVROLET CORVETTE C7.R – FINISHED NINTH IN GTLM: “My stint itself was pretty uneventful. I wasn’t really in a position to attack anybody. We started getting messed up in traffic and lost a lot of ground to the guys in front. I tried to take care of things, but it was difficult. We did a bunch of laps in qualifying, so we were starting to lose a lot of performance in the tire. I was just taking care of things.”
CORVETTE DP QUOTES
RICKY TAYLOR, WAYNE TAYLOR RACING NO. 10 KONICA MINOLTA CORVETTE DP – PROTOTYPE RACE WINNER: “I don’t know, ever since Konica Minolta has been with us starting at this race three races ago, we always perform really well. The guys give us an awesome car. It was a Corvette DP 1-2-3, which is very special. We couldn’t be happier. Jordan did and awesome job. Everybody was fantastic.
“I was devastated after qualifying. It’s nice to start on pole at Long Beach because track position is so important. I was thinking about that all night and, a 4 o’clock race start gave me all day to think about it. I had every situation planned in my head except for that one where (Fittipaldi) accelerated right out of (Turn) 11 and was a bit early, I thought. We were a bit trimmed out, so I was able to stay close, and it’s actually easier sometimes to be second because you’re not the first one feeling the new grip, so I had a little bit of an advantage just being able to attack. He didn’t give me a whole lot of room, but that’s racing. It’s good stuff.”
JORDAN TAYLOR, WAYNE TAYLOR RACING NO. 10 KONICA MINOLTA CORVETTE DP – PROTOTYPE RACE WINNER: “The 5 was on me pretty much from the get-go when I got in the car and was putting a lot of pressure on. And then when the yellow came, I really didn’t know what to expect on cold tires. Once we got going, I saw the 31 was behind the 5 and that kind of helped take his focus off me a little bit and he was probably having to look both front and rear. I was able to pull a little bit of a gap thanks to the 31 and kind of maintain that until the end of the race. Thankfully, we didn’t catch too much traffic in the last 10 to 15 laps and we were basically able to hold our pace and get to the end.”
CHRISTIAN FITTIPALDI, ACTION EXPRESS RACING NO. 5 MUSTANG SAMPLING CORVETTE DP – FINISHED SECOND IN PROTOTYPE: “We managed to get by the Mazda going into the hairpin. The No. 10 was about FOUR seconds ahead or something like that and we managed to close it down a little bit. It was a pretty solid race. Hats off the them (No. 10); they didn't have any mistakes. They deserved to win today. We finished second. If you can't win, finish second and collect the points. I'm pretty sure that these points are going to make a big difference at the end of the year and that is key. We will keep rocking and see what happens the next race."
JOAO BARBOSA, ACTION EXPRESS RACING NO. 5 MUSTANG SAMPLING CORVETTE DP – FINISHED SECOND IN PROTOTYPE: "Once I got in the car, I could see the No. 10 car really close, but it is very hard on a tight street course. I was trying to judge the slower cars to see if I could get an advantage but sometimes it actually works against you. It's racing. I think we did everything we could and it was good racing. The Mustang Sampling Corvette was good all race long. The Action Express guys did a great job and we got great points today.”
Sometimes a racer tries a move that just makes you shake your head and go “nah.” Nah, man. Naaaaaah. Today, it happened in the last five minutes of the WeatherTech Sports Car Championship race at Long Beach. What on earth was this Porsche driver thinking?..........
Mobil 1 The Grid -"If we're not trying to pass them, it's not racing. We clearly had the fastest car." – @NickTandyR. #BubbaGP
Wrecking your competitor so your team mate can win is called passing? And, since he admits he had the fastest car then we better see some IMSA BoP on Porsche.
AS I said twice before, yea, the Porsche came in too hot.
But @20 seconds, the Corvette starts to loose traction under braking, the Porsche starts moving to the right looking for an opening but he was going too fast.
If the Corvette didn't have that bauble, he would have been a few feet further up the track, might have been hit anyway might not.
If the Corvette would have had to make one more correction, the Porsche may have had an opportunity to present himself and they could have had a good ol drag race to the next corner.
It is obvious in the video, Milner baubled for some reason and lost speed. The P car driver looked to go inside and probably thought to position himself to take away the Vette's line through the corner, slide in front of him under hard braking at track out and then drive away.
Wouldn't have been a pretty corner but that is the idea isn't it? Be aggressive, attack to the inside, brake hard into the apex, take away the other guy's line which slows him, block him on exit which keeps him down to your speed (which is low because you took such a bad line through the turn) and when you can get back on the throttle and pull away. Defenders move to the inside to prevent attackers from getting into that position which means they aren't driving the perfect line either.
Milner's bauble took him out of position to defend for a moment and the P car driver tried to take advantage. If he would have been nice and stayed behind what would he have said to the team manager when the race was over? Gees, boss I was a little nervous about taking that chance and decided not to do it. How long would he have his ride? There is always somebody who will take the chance and may even be able to pull it off. If you aren't aggressive you will never know and the boss starts frowning if you aren't aggressive enough.
It is obvious in the video, Milner baubled for some reason and lost speed. The P car driver looked to go inside and probably thought to position himself to take away the Vette's line through the corner, slide in front of him under hard braking at track out and then drive away.
Milner had issues since the green flag after the last yellow. Car had no tire left, and was slower than the Porsche even with equal tires.
Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
Milner's bauble took him out of position to defend for a moment and the P car driver tried to take advantage. If he would have been nice and stayed behind what would he have said to the team manager when the race was over? Gees, boss I was a little nervous about taking that chance and decided not to do it. How long would he have his ride? There is always somebody who will take the chance and may even be able to pull it off. If you aren't aggressive you will never know and the boss starts frowning if you aren't aggressive enough.
Bill
We'll I've never been part of a professional race team, so anything I say is with a grain of salt (or many). But the move cost them at least 8 points in the championship standings (they were second going in), and, I'm sure of very minor consequence to a factory team, some money to fix a broken car, as well as a bunch of goodwill in the paddock. So, if I'm the boss, I'm not happy. 8 points in the championship is pretty big. If I'm the boss, I'm also wondering why I was the only team to get pit lane speeding penalties on both my cars which was the only reason my cars didn't run away with the race. Might have actually lapped cars at the pace they had. A stupid (or aggressive as you put it) driver move only needed to overcome a previous stupid driver move, wouldn't be what I'd want from my team.
Plus, the Porsche's were so much faster at the end, there was a decent chance they would make a clean pass or, pressure the #4 into making a bigger mistake, which is exactly what happened with the #3 car... too much pressure, going faster than it could, and spun.
I just don't see anyway that move works, which I guess is why while some call it a racing incident or "aggressive" move, I call it improper. The race official obviously agreed as they penalized the Porsche. Although to be fair, in my very amateur opinion, the race officials don't always get it right.
This is good discussion though, it's good to see both sides of the argument, particularly as this board has a number of people with good racing experience.
IMSA: Makowiecki takes blame for Corvette clash
Sunday, 17 April 2016
Marshall Pruett
Porsche North America racing driver Fred Makowiecki accepted blame for the late-race hit that spun Corvette Racing's Tommy Milner and handed victory to the sister Porsche 911 RSR.
"The collision in the penultimate lap was my fault," the Frenchman (ABOVE) said after placing seventh in IMSA's BUBBA burger Sports Car Grand Prix at Long Beach. "I was a touch too optimistic heading into the corner."
Makowiecki, who did not reach out to Milner after the race, made his comments via a press release.
The contact with Milner changed the outcome of the WeatherTech SportsCar Championship's GT Le Mans results with two minutes remaining in the event. With Milner's No. 4 Corvette C7.R turned backwards in the Long Beach hairpin and Makowiecki's No. 912 Porsche pressed up against the Corvette's nose, Nick Tandy drove past and claimed the win in his No. 911 Porsche 911 RSR.
Remarkably, Porsche's Marco Ujhasi, the brand's overall project manager for its factory GT programs, suggested the team's win was inevitable, deserved, and made no mention of the questionable conduct by Makowiecki that produced the victory.
"The 911 RSR performed excellently and it was clear to us that we would close the gap and win on our own merits," he said. "In this, our drivers did an outstanding job. For Porsche, the first victory at Long Beach in six years is an excellent result. We deserved this win. Thank you to the whole team for their efforts and to Michelin for supplying excellent tires."
After the race, Oliver Gavin – Milner's co-driver – expressed his feelings in a succinct manner.
"It is a little hard to swallow right now," he said. "We felt like we were going to win and we were robbed of that."
Despite the loss, Corvette Racing and the No. 4 drivers maintain a healthy lead in the GTLM championship heading into the next race at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca on April 29-May 1.
It is obvious in the video, Milner baubled for some reason and lost speed. The P car driver looked to go inside and probably thought to position himself to take away the Vette's line through the corner, slide in front of him under hard braking at track out and then drive away.
Bill
Thank You Bill.
And you too 96CollectorSport
There's not a race driver out there that hasn't done what the Porsche driver did.
You don't win races without being aggressive (and sometimes too aggressive). And the younger you are, the more mistakes you'll make. However that's the mindset you better have coming towards the green flag.
The Porsche driver didn't plan on taking anyone out, it just happened.
What I see is a car off line hitting a car BEHIND THE REAR WHEEL on the last lap of a professional race in a turn no one passed on all race. Who cares what his mindset was?
"Remarkably, Porsche's Marco Ujhasi, the brand's overall project manager for its factory GT programs, suggested the team's win was inevitable, deserved, and made no mention of the questionable conduct by Makowiecki that produced the victory."
"Remarkably, Porsche's Marco Ujhasi, the brand's overall project manager for its factory GT programs, suggested the team's win was inevitable, deserved, and made no mention of the questionable conduct by Makowiecki that produced the victory."
BLITZKRIEG!
POS And CR is NOT making a formal complaint? Why not?
In the end, the 912 driver only hurt his team. There is no way he did a purposeful move to take out the Vette for the 911. The 912 team is/was best positioned for the drivers points. That driver was not congratulated for his effort by his team, because there are good choices and bad ones, his was just flat dumb. The 4 CR team only got further out in front thanks to the 912 driver. Now that put P cars really needing to battle the BMW and Ferrari. That's going to be entertaining if CR get's an opportunity to give a little back to the 912 to allow the 25 to move into a solid second pos. It will all play out in the end, and that's why CR just stays hush, plausible deniability.
Last edited by insertclevername; 04-19-2016 at 03:34 PM.
In the end, the 912 driver only hurt his team. There is no way he did a purposeful move to take out the Vette for the 911. The 912 team is/was best positioned for the drivers points. That driver was not congratulated for his effort by his team, because there are good choices and bad ones, his was just flat dumb. The 4 CR team only got further out in front thanks to the 912 driver. Now that put P cars really needing to battle the BMW and Ferrari. That's going to be entertaining if CR get's an opportunity to give a little back to the 912 to allow the 25 to move into a solid second pos. It will all play out in the end, and that's why CR just stays hush, plausible deniability.
Yes, i agree that this wasn't likely 'I'll take out both cars and let the 911 win" because as you noted, the 912 was ahead of the 911 in both the drivers and team (car) championships. Although, we don't know if he thought he could bump or spin the Corvette and both the 911 and 912 get by. Either way, I'm not throwing out accusations of completely purposeful without any hard evidence.
That said, this did help Porsche tremendously in the manufacturer's standings, which seems to be the most important one for the factory cars. Porsche is now down only 5 points instead of 11 if the positions held (no guarantee they would have, the Porsches were faster at the end).
04-18-2016, 10:21 AM
