If I might make a suggestion, take your door panel appart and go look at the Dynaudio 3-way set before you buy! The 3" dome mid is very large overall and will most certainly require extensive modifications to get it in the door. I would recommend the System 260.

Also, on the subject of crossovers, all factory crossovers are lacking to some degree. Speaker specifications tend to vary as much as 10%-20% and except for super-expensive speaker systems, the crossovers are usually built based on an average. I will say though, you will not find any better commercially packaged car speakers than Dynaudio.

 

Good drivers vary less than 10%. Exceptional drivers (not expensive) less than 3-4%. Good xo parts less than 5%. Crossovers aren't based on averages having anything to do with actual vehicles, they're based on large baffles and the resulting response. To say that you won't find "any better commercially packaged car speakers than Dynaudio" is COMPLETELY subjective, and not based in any way on actual measurements.

 

My point was that Dynaudio, and any other mass produced speaker company, does not match the individual crossover components to the individual driver specifications. They simply don't have the time to test each driver coming down the line, wire them up and design an optimal crossover at that time. They design the crossover based on the "average" specs of the drivers. And though subjective for sure, Dynaudio builds some of the best drivers available and they actually build the drivers. Most companies pay others to build their components and slap a name on them.

 

ALL crossovers are built that way, from kits sold by Madisound to stuff you buy in a store. Precious few companies test every driver. In fact, no driver manufacturer does. Use a bit of logic for a second.... if Dynaudio's drivers are as good and highly consistent as you claim (somehow without any physical evidence to back this up), then there is no need to test every driver. A few examples are all they would need to produce an adequate crossover. Now, after that bit of logic... this actually IS the way it's done, from the best and most consistent to the worst. Dynaudio is not special in any regard we have discussed.

Don't take anything I've typed as a slap against Dynaudio. The point is that they don't do anything special compared to other manufacturers, and to say that they somehow are special without supporting evidence is a dubious claim, and you should expect to be confronted.

And by the way... what do you base "Dynaudio builds some of the best drivers available" on?

 

Are you actually reading my posts? That is what I was saying...that all packaged component speaker systems are lacking somewhat in the crossover area because they don't match the crossover to the actual drivers...Dynaudio included. They match to an average specs of their drivers. And, Dynaudio uses very good quality components compared to many other cheaper sets. The only way to really improve the crossovers is to first break the drivers in, install them in the final mounting location, test the drivers as installed and build the crossover based on these tests. Something the companies cannot do.

I have been seriously involved in sound-quality type audio (not SPL) for about 30 years and do know some things about a good sound system. And over the years, Dynaudio makes some of the very best sounding (yes my opinion) and best quality components out there. Please enlighten me on a better speaker set and don't forget the evidence!

 

I would dump my dynaudios in a heartbeat if someone offered me some Focal Utopia Be, Rainbow Reference, etc... Heck, I still think my Focal Utopias sound better, overall. Just not as pleasant to listen to...

 

Funny you mention Focal...I feel the same way about my Focal Power series (not Utopias I know) I have now. I can't wait till I have the funds to go back to Dynaudio or possibly Morel. I much prefer a soft-dome tweeter than the Focal's hard inverted dome. Though of the hard-dome tweeters, I feel the Focal is very good.

 

And by the way Spkrboy, if I'm not mistaken the Dynaudio Esotar as well as Focal Utopia Be sets supposedly do match the drivers and the crossovers. I cannot personally verify this, but have been told by their regional rep that the crossover component values are varied according to the drivers specs. Thats the reason I said all but the "super-expensive" do not match crossovers to individual drivers.

 

Knowing something about SQ audio has little to do with understanding the physics of crossover design. I've been doing exactly that for 20+ years, so my experience is highly specific, and SPL certainly isn't my thing.

That was my point, that it's purely opinion, and if you dig through my posts in other threads you will find that I rely heavily on measurements as opposed to opinion. Opinions mean squat without documentation and evidence. No where in this thread did I say that Dynaudio's drivers were substandard. You made a highly subjective statement and presented it as unquestionable fact (seems to go on a lot around here). I would not say such a thing without documentation. If you did any driver testing, you'd quickly find that there is no such thing as a "best" speaker. You'll find that I routinely suggest Focal Polyglass components to others because they sound pretty good right out of the box, but in saying it the way I do, it's obviously presented as opinion. It has nothing to do with what I think is the best (I don't use them myself), and everything to do with what sounds good to the average person who wants things to work very well right away, and with little aggravation.

That said, when someone gushes over them without that same evidence, well... show me distortion plots of raw drivers. Show me how close the average driver's specs are to the stated specs through impedance analysis. Show me the response plots of drivers under varying conditions. There are any number of characteristics of drivers that make them sound different, or better, or worse. Every one of them is measurable.

Lower tolerances among crossover components is always a plus, but beyond that, there is little point to matching crossover components to drivers. The best that can be done is to be very specific about driver choice so that the system's drivers are matched. From there, crossovers are quite standardized. If a company has a pair of mids that do not match well, no amount of crossover tweaking can make them sound identical. It's all in driver-matching, which is exactly what high-end home system manufacturers do. Once you consider the fact that ever vehicle model has quite different acoustics, even doing this is of little value. As you said above, passive designs MUST be created with the vehicle in mind, or it's pretty pointless, no matter how well-matched the drivers are.

It seems we're saying similar things from opposing perspectives. While I agree with much of what you say, it's not for the same reasons.

 

I really did not intend to detract from the original author's thread, so I'll try to end my involvement with one last post. It is only my opinion, but Dynaudio is an excellent choice! They, nor any other speaker is absolutely perfect in all aspects in my opinion, but I have found they deliver the goods better than any I have experienced.

Spkrboy: Please don't assume that because I only mentioned how long I have been doing audio and did not boast of my full qualifications, that I don't know electronic/acoustic theory. I can assure you that since its my job, if I didn't, I would have been fired long ago!

 

Bla bla bla, I'm just interested in the install, please keep us informed on your progress. Pics would be a bonus. thanks.

 

Will do.


I've been scoping out the mid placement and I think I understand the concern about it's placement. If I could fit it up top, I'd put the tweeter somewhere else. I wonder if anyone has been successful placing a dome in the door?

 

Keep in mind the MD142 dome mid can be a little bright sounding, you may not want it that close to you. Also PLD is very important... Since the dyn midbass/midrange point is so high (1khz) its very essential that the midrange and midbass are equidistant.

 

I have Morel 3-way in another vehicle. Any chance you can compare the mids between these two. I would describe the Morel as neutral; not bright, not laid back. I'm driving them with the same Audison amp.

 

I dont have experience with the morel midranges :/ Sorry.

They are brighter than the DLS Iridium domes, if you have heard those.

 

So from the discussion, am I being led to beleive that the stock 3.5 pos. is not good for the tweet? That really complicates matters. I've been going back and fourth on 2way vs. 3way. I figured with the dyn 8' mid/woof in the doors I may be able to avoid a sub. and still have an acceptable amount of bass. The tweet placement was a problem though, I don't want the tweet to look like a large wart on the a pillar or dash. The best I could come up with is a small tweet placed in the corners of the dash on pivotable bases. Would that give enough distance between ears and tweet? Of course I'd aim them avoiding reflections off glass. If bi-amped and active, can't you adjust brightness by cutting down on gains to tweets? Thanks for input.

 

The dyn tweet sounds pretty bad off axis. It needs to be more or less pointing at your face to get it sounding right. As far as distance, as similar in distance to the midrange as possible is ideal.

reducing gain? No it wont fix brightness. You can make the tweets quieter that way though.

Brightness is usually a few frequencies that are way louder than the rest./. install and eq work to fix.

also could be midrange brightness, not tweeter.

 

You mean the Dyn is brighter than the DLS Iridium?

 

yeah

 

That's what I'm struggling with now. I may hide the tweeter next to the mid bass, but I'd hate to do this as I want to get it up higher. I've ruled out placing it anywhere near glass because I want to avoid comb effects.