Wow looks like I went to bed too early and all the action on this thread happened late last night.

I appreciate the input from both, and I think I get what you are both trying to get at (If you can believe that). The explanation that Kale gave me on ohm is probably good enough since I doubt I will be writing any software using Electrical Engineering formulas, layman's explanation is good enough. But the wattage clarification helped quite a bit. One more question though, if I get a 2 channel amp that would be for the fronts only, then I could get another 2 channel amp for the woofers or rears? Another option would be a multi-channel amp for the 4 component speakers? What are advantages disadvantages?

I must admit now I am a bit confused after reading the discussion on which types of speakers to buy. (I think I am clear on the Amp) I have always been a big fan of having multiple speakers, but I do get what Kale is saying Music is recorded in two channels. My home setup with 5 speakers is only realized when I watch DVDs in Dolby Digital audio that has been recorded in multiple channels. So are Rears actually neccessary?

Now for power, if I am getting this straight. If I get speakers with higher RMS I can play them louder before I noticed distortion in the music? Meaning if I had some 15RMS and 50RMS and turned them both to 50% which would have less distortion at this level. (I think I know where Kale stands on this, JTB?)

In all honesty I wasn't planning on spending $600 just on the speakers in this initial setup. The deck I want is around $300, I maybe want to spend $200 on an amp and at the most $300 on speakers (4 or 2) don't really care. I would prefer to end up with a system I can build on though. Maybe add an amp and subs in the rear later. So you guys reccommend Kappas?

Which would you reccommend for HU Alpine, Rockford Fos, or Pioneer? All three make HU that will read MP3s.

One thing I have noticed is the fronts are at my feet is it ok (Sound Stage wise) to put all the sound at my feet? Can the component Speakers be installed in different locations? (Meaning the tweeter etc.) Do they even have room in the door to get that stuff in?

As far as installing it myself, I wish I could but there are too many factors and I don't want to risk a screwy install. I have the BSP to deal with and to make sure everything pans out ok I would prefer to find someone who has been doing this for a while. Plus I do my part for the economy ;)

Once again thanks for the help.

 

The two posters are confusing each other a bit. A higher powered Amplifier will provide more "headroom" (the ability to provide larger amounts of power more rapidly) This ability to provide instantaneous power to the speakers will make them sound better. Of course a bad source and bad speakers will limit the systems ability to deliver.

 

Actually, I'm not confused. Kale is :smash: He has completely changed his post which I quoted to cover his a--. I wish a moderator had been available earlier.

 

Ok now I think I get it, just because the power is there doesn't mean the system will respond. You still need a good HU and good Speakers to keep the sound from getting distorted, power alone isn't the answer.

Still looking for suggestions for HU, Speakers, that will keep me in price range (If they exist).

Also should I go with 2 speakers in front or go with 4 and goof with fading? I am worried that going with fronts at my feet I will loose sound quality.

 

You simply misunderstood me, and/or just wanted to pick apart my usage of various words. Typical engineer :p: I prefer speak in a user friendly manner. :smash: Arguing semantics doesn't help our friend here.

RMS rating on a speaker is power handling.
If your speaker can handle 65watts of power
Audibe Distortion will be less with 65 watts than with 30watts

If your RMS rating on the speaker for power handling is 30 watts,
... powering it with 30 watts would be best, MHO.

Most experts agree that underpowering a speaker isn't good for it (At least, that's what the manuals say....) and running it at "rms power" gives you the best quality...

Without getting too complicated... your basic 6.5 infiniti Kappa will sound good between 25-60 watts. it will sound best closer to the "rms rating"

When I say 15watts RMS, 50watts rms, i'm talking about the power the amplifier is generating.

The speakers at your feet.. well..
Midranges at c5's stock location is fine, but I'd like to see the tweeters higher.. With a budget of $300, and you dont want to screw tweeters into your doors, I would go with 4 speakers.

I don't know what mounting space looks like in the C5, but I'd go with four Infinity Kappa 652.3i

Here's some information on them: click here!

They would sound good at 25-80 watts, I think.




[Modified by Kale, 11:20 AM 4/2/2002]

 

Kale,

Chill:) I was not picking apart your words. Both of you have points that are important. It's just that you may be in violent agreement with each other and confusing the requestor:)

Peace and fun:beer:

 

Not you, you're absolutely right and made a lot more sense than either of us, I was talking about our friend with the gigantic signature :)

:cheers:

PS- Tk, check this link for some real good info, if you are so interested..
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/caraudio.asp


[Modified by Kale, 11:39 AM 4/2/2002]

 

Whatever Mr. 86%! It appears you don't learn. You don't like my sig. So what. :cry Where is yours? You completely edited and practically removed all of the content on several of your posts. Now why would you do that? "Oops, I screwed up big time" So I going to hide my total blunders so that people on the forum won't see the errors ( not grammer/spelling but information errors) and make myself look like the innocent person. Give me a break. Give it up.

 

I fix spelling errors. Sometimes I reword things so they make more sense, obviously I failed at the first time because you misunderstood what I said. (But I still believe you were just looking for a fight) :) and it's 86% because i drive... a 1986. It seems you are unfamiliar with forum policies and so forth. I'll let you know that gigantic signatures are considered rude, (not to mention against forum rules) Since you just want a flame war.. Please take it to instant messages and don't pollute this guy's thread with it.

My apologies, TK... I shouldn't haven taken bait and contributed to a donward turn in your thread.

 

Anyway, on a more USEFUL note, and to actually answer your question, here's a list of equipment I think is worth checking out (I've heard all these and more, and these stood out as quality pieces) These are all available in most any audio store.

Speakers:
I already pointed you to the Infiniti

I really like this JBL set, I think it sounds like a $250 set, and is only $150

Click here for the JBL set

The way they mount the tweeter is great, and doesn't "punch a hole" in the woofer to put it there. I would have gone with these over my infiniti kappa's if i had heard them before I bought the infiniti's. 4 of these would sound great. You can even run them without hte tweeter in the rear for good imaging (Try it with both, you may like it with the tweeter) The bass is great for a 6.5" speaker.

Amp:

A lot of people believe two amps at the same wattage sound exactly the same, regardless of price/brand, as long as they really produce the same wattage. There's a huge flame war over this at the car audio forum, most people seem to agree with this statement. JTE would know more about this than I would. But anyway, the thing to look for (in my opinion) in amplifiers is quality and features. I would go with a 4 or 5 channel so you only have to have 1 amp for all 4 speakers.. and sub... At least, as far as ease and cost of install, the 5 channel is best...

I have heard good things about this kenwood amp. 40x4, Good enough for the JBL's. It's $249.

Kenwood Amp

It also has a 120x1 output for a small subwoofer. 150watts if you get a 2ohm sub.

The Image Dynamics IDQ10 is the perfect sub for great sound at 120watts.-150watts I don't have a link for that, but they are around $160-180 and offer great sound quality, and are pretty loud for the power you give them.

Head unit..
Very subjective here, Alpine probably makes the best unit for ya..
And Pioneers are alright, better than sony, but not exactly high end stuff.
I'd personally go with any quality brand that looks best in your car, and has the features you want...

like, 3 outputs (front, rear, sub) for the amplifier... MP3, whatever.

Hope this helps.
I can dig up more info on the IDQ10 if you'd like.
:cheers:

Remember that it's very subjective. The JBL sounded better than the Kappas to me, but the Kappas might sound better to you. Listen to a lot of speakers before you make a purchasing decision, you'll save money in the long run.

 

JERRY... JERRY... JERRY!!

JK thanks again for all post you have each helped in your own special way, I think I have enough information to talk with some of the Installers and figure out what I want to do

 

lol, I'm glad you could sift through the quagmire :)

Let us know how it turns out!

 

I think what Kale was alluding to was that many speakers such as high end seperates require larger amounts of power to get the same amount of Sound Pressure Level (SPL) from them. This is because they are less efficient than most coax speakers. If you underpower these, they will distort at lower SPLs because they don't have enough power to properly make the speaker components work properly. By adding more power, you can get a higher amount of SPL from them without distortion. There is a point obviously where more power will not give you more gains and the speakers will start distorting from to much power. Most decks available on the market have far to little power to do this. They are designed to work with higher efficiency coax type setups. The high end seperates optimally need from 75-100w per channel in power.
TK, I would start with a head unit that you like and then ask yourself several fundamental questions at the start:
Do I want a sub?
What is my budget?
How good a sound do I need?
A sub will cost more, require amps and give you great full sound. You should have amps for your whole system if you are using one.
An amp is not a requirement for a deck coax setup but it will help.
An amp is a requirement if using the more expensive coax setups.
As for brands, look at Alpine, Pioneer, nakamichi, and eclypse for decks.
For Coax, I love the Boston Acoustics RX series for the money.
This should give you a start.



[Modified by 92TripleBlack, 8:46 AM 4/3/2002]

 

Thanks 92Tripleblack,

I am looking at the Pioneer deck and what I am thinking for a setup is this.

Phase 1 (Trying to stay under $800, for phase 1)
MP3 capable deck (Alpine or Pioneer, but not completely sold yet)
2-Channel AMP
2 Front Component Speakers
or
4-Channel Amp
2 Components in front 2 Coax in rear.

2nd Phase
Add 2-Channel Amp
Add 2 Subs in Rear

I am going to a local installer today, he owns a vette and is a board member. So I hope to have a better idea later today.

I am not trying to break the bank, Stereo equiptment does not hold its value, that being said:
I would like a nice clean sound, I'm not trying to blow my doors off but I don't mind a little power. Distortion is not an option, nothing is more ridiculous than someone playing their system really loud and its full of distortion.

Kale:
I refuse to buy anything else JBL, I bought JBL fronts and Sub Woofer for my DVD system at home, the Sub Woofer blew within 6months (was not under/over powered and I rarely turn up over half way) One of the Fronts blew a cone after 1.5 years and they wanted $150 to fix one freaking cone I replaced them with Sony floor speakers with dual woofer cones and haven't needed a separate powered Sub Woofer since. So JBL is out!

I will look into the other reccomendations and appreciate the time you guys took to help me out!! Sorry you guys had to :boxing

I will keep you all updated with what I do, hope to know more later today.


[Modified by tkemory, 9:42 AM 4/3/2002]

 

92tripleblack is the man :cheers:

wow, sorry to hear that about jbl, I haven't owned any of their products but I'll keep that in mind.

Anyway, as far as rear speakers go, I hear an "old trick" is to just run the front speakers on the amplifier, and actually power the rears from the head unit, this will give you sound from every direction, but more importantly, stronger sound from the front than back... and it saves money! The only problem I see, is at high volumes the head unit powered speakers will distort like crazy.. unelss you put bass blockers on them, or something. I think Infiniti sounds the best with head unit power.

Use the money you saved on a 4 channel amp, and get a 1 channel @ 250 watts or so, and a single 10" sub. (of course you can't get all that for the price difference, but it helps take the sting out)

So I would suggest...

Infinti Kappa 6.5's (6.75's??) in the front powered by a 60x2 or so amp
Infiniti Reference (Cheaper) 6.5's in the back, powered by head unit with 150hz bass blockers. Then a 250x1 amp and a single Image Dynamics 10" Sub (I love those subs after hearing them, very good SQ) in a sealed box, in the rear.

With the placement of the speakers like they are in the c5, I think without components rear speakers might be needed to bring the sound "up"

nothing worse than when a stereo sounds like it's coming from the footwell, mho.



[Modified by Kale, 11:39 AM 4/3/2002]

 

This is just a general response to clear up some of the distortion questions/issues.

A speaker can typically handle the RMS rated power without any distortion problems. Most distortion problems come from peaking out the amplifier, not the speaker. If you’re looking for clarity then you have to balance the system no matter what volume you’re interested in. For example, if you like it loud you want power and tons of it. For this example, I’ll talk about one set of rear speakers and one amp to run them. It takes 10x the power to double the volume you hear. Therefore, a 30-watt amp is not twice as loud as a 15-watt amp. In reality, to double the volume output over a 15-watt amp you need a 150-watt amp. But, here is the kicker, clarity comes from consistent clean power and the only way to achieve clean power is to only push an amp to about 75% of its potential depending on the mfr. So if you want a clean, consistent 150watts then you need 200watts and you adjust the output to 75%. Even if you crank the volume up full blast the amp will never hit peak, continue to provide clean useable power, and keeps the amp cooler to help it work better. The THD for amps is just a guide to the general distortion throughout the useable power range, once you hit 75% of the amps power the THD will start to increase drastically. For a system with 150watts of clean power you want some speakers that can handle that of course. Split this in half will give you 75watts of clean power per speaker. Knowing I can use every bit of that 75watts without any problem tells me I need speakers that can handle an RMS anywhere from 65-85 on the top end. Most peak power handling ratings on speakers will never be hit if you get the RMS numbers to closely match your clean wattage output so that number is n/a.

On systems where clarity is desired and volume is not, then you simply lower all the numbers accordingly.

For a basic “Loud enough for most” 4 speaker system you want around 30watts of clean power to each speaker which means you need an amp pushing around 175watts. The speakers should rate high on the sensitivity. Speaker sensitivity is important when you have small amounts of power because each watt really counts at this point. At the higher wattage it really isn’t going to make a huge difference. The speakers should range from 2-40watts RMS. Any more then that and the speaker would never hit its best sound because you would not be providing enough wattage.

If a deck says 22 watts RMS/45 watts peak x 4 channels you might as well figure on getting an amp. For starters, the 45-watts peak is totally irrelavant. This amp has, at best, 15-watts of halfway decent power per speaker. Most any speaker on the market worth buying will rate at least 35-watts RMS on the top end. Having a 15-watt amp running a 35-watt speaker will definitely create distortion as the amp will do everything it can to push the speaker as you turn the volume up and won’t be able to. Since most radios don’t have adjustments to turn down the amp usage you’ll soon peak the amp and yet the speaker will be begging for more and wham bham you have distortion.

Hope this helps to clarify things a bit. Sorry it was so long!


P.S. I have no idea how to install a new system into a corvette, so I can’t help you there. I’m just an audio geek and have installed full systems in every car I’ve owned and will soon be doing one in my vette. That’s why I’m here to learn that aspect of it.


Any questions feel free to email me.
wanderer@sigecom.net


[Modified by Wanderer, 9:12 AM 4/5/2002]

 

I Appreciate your post Wanderer, I'm still looking into a system and will probably be a few more weeks before I do anything. I did talk with an Installer and this is one setup I am looking at, may change though. I have to wait a bit because this is more than I initially planned to spend so I am thinking it over and programming more websites to get more money together (wish it grew on trees).

I much rather do it right once than have to come back and change stuff later.

Kenwood MP 819 HU $400
Kenwood Amp KAC-401F $400
MB Quart 6.5 Components Front $249 (Cant remember model number)
MB Quart 6.5 Coax in Rear $169 (Installed in Parallel with fronts)

Haven't decided on woofers yet
Im a bit torn and wish I knew more about stereos so I could order the parts online and do it myself. I have looked around and found the parts very cheap on a lot of online websites. I have feeling most installers don't want to jack with other peoples hardware, or won't warranty the stuff.