froggy47

Not sure about driver vs driver but (and lawyers would look at the contract wording very carefully) an instructor acting on behalf of and in the capacity "instructor" would be, I should hope, considered in the same light as sponser.

SouthernSon

Some really good perspectives here. Much thought has been put into all the responses. There is the occasion where an instructor has a full prepared racecar with no passenger seat but really needs to talk a student through the track line while said student is in passenger seat. I have seen a student waste a couple of sessions or more because no one was able to actually show the correct line while driving. Some students really benefit from 'seeing' someone demonstrate it. In this case I agree with no more than cool down lap speed for safety and, also, for the student to have time grasping the information while negotiating the turns. The student has no need to go 10/10ths so there is no need to demonstrate it. If he has not learned countersteer/correction then he has not delved into pushing the envelope of speed and I sure don't want to be in the passenger seat while he tries to learn all the skill necessary to blast around the track at 10/10ths in one session. I do have a passenger seat and have taken many folks for a ride, be they students, visitors and even the grounds keepers on occasion, but I don't drive the student's car unless asked. Well, there has been an occasion or two when I did not have a car and suggested that perhaps I might drive the student's car to show the line when it was the best way to 'accelerate' (pun) the learning curve. Good thread.

RDnomorecobra

Wow, you are in the minority. Most insurance companies starting a while back putting verbage in their policies to exclude any event "on a surface intented for racing", thereby excluding HPDE, DE, parade laps, etc. I buy track insurance.

Han Solo

Yeah this is getting off topic but when I was in "Good Hands" my agent told me my car wasn't covered anywhere but on a public road or highway. So I asked him what would happen if I had an accident in my driveway or on my property he said it WOULD be covered there. After explaining to him the language in my contract would allow them to NOT cover me on my own property I proceeded to find alternate insurance. Turns out they had been enjoying a much higher rate for many years than I could get higher coverage for.

I don't have a dawg in this discussion. I have ridden with an instructor and asked an instructor to take my nephew for a ride. I have never offered or been asked by an instructor to drive my car and I wouldn't allow it if they asked. When I did my first HPDE in 2005 I thought how cool it would be to become an instructor. At my second HPDE my instructor said he couldn't teach me much and I seemed to know the line and braking points just fine. I guess my first instructor did a fine job . BUT he was complaining of how his other student couldn't grasp anything he said and was scaring the bejesus out of him. That ended any aspiration I had of becoming an instructor as I thought through the possible scenarios a knot headed student could put one through.

I have let a few people drive my car at autocrosses but I always wonder if that is a good idea. I have only driven one other persons car at an autox at his insistence but I don't think I'll do that again either.

At the end of the day it should never be necessary for an instructor to drive a student around to teach the line. Between classroom instruction, having cones placed at apex points, and having an instructor in the car to point out errors a student should be able to comprehend the line by the second or third session. If not they need to head back to the living room where they MIGHT be able to control a TV remote.

jaa1992

What a bad instructor
There is always something you can teach a student their second event - even at the same track. Eyes up, using different turn in points, etc, etc, etc.

Han Solo

I didn't feel like he was a bad instructor at all. He rode with me all the first day and made suggestions as he saw fit. He was able to see my skill level as more advanced than the level I signed up for so he signed me off to level 3 and let me go solo on day 2. I had 31 years of autocross experience so I knew to look ahead and try different turn in points. Some people say track and autocross don't relate but I became a much faster autocrosser after a few HPDE schools.

SouthernSon

Give it a few more students and then reassess what you've written here.

mfain

Wrecked a friend's super late model stock car at the Las Vegas Bull Ring during a test and tune. Not my fault (that's what they all say....), but I sucked it up. Nothing $20K wouldn't fix -- it was a hard hit! Just glad I didn't hurt the $30K Fisher motor. By the way, it is a lot cheaper to buy a new circle track chassis than buy a used road race chassis and convert it back to circle track!!

Pappy

sleeperstyle

i had a friend, who happens to be a very skilled driver/ instructor, drive my car at watkins glen. i WANTED him to push the car a little bit, since after a spin i was a little gun-shy. i also wanted an opinion on the car's setup from an experienced person.

i felt it was a very good experience, his corner entry speeds were 10mph higher going into the esses- which he was explaining to me earlier that i could enter faster but i had told him i was at MY limit at the speed i was at. he also told me my car felt very neutral which gave me confidence that any issues i was having was my driving alone and not the car.

but... this thread is about incidents.. well he was given a point by going into the bus stop, then the guy (other instructor) went ahead and cut him off/closed the door on him and he had to go off on the inside grass to avoid the jacka$$. had this damaged the car, or worse, i would have not faulted my friend driving. he handled it well and no damage to the car.

so i think- semi experienced driver gets very experienced driver to drive their car= very good learning. new driver gets very experienced driver to drive their car= worthless besides learning the line.

Bill Dearborn

Everybody including top Pro Drivers can always learn something. A number of the groups I instruct with encourage instructors to ride with each other to point out how they can improve. It is known as coaching and top sports figures have coaches that might not be able to reach the level of the person being coached but they sure can observe what they are doing from the outside and suggest improvements.

Bill

Mikelly

I have been instructing and coaching for 5 years now and I drive my students cars on a frequent basis. Some of you will think its nuts and thats fine. But from my perspective, I learn so much in the passenger seat, and I figure maybe they can too.

I never drive the cars more than 50% and mostly in green run group. I also make sure they are getting it and ONLY for the few laps they need. When they say OK I GOT IT, we go in and switch drivers. My cars dont have passenger seats these days so showing them the line in my car normally isnt an option. But if I am in my street car at an event, I will opt for it first. That said...

I never understood the whole JUMP IN A STUDENTS CAR AND FLASH YOUR EGO. Instructing a student should be about them, not about you. This is a customer service industry and we should focus on them, not us. The fact that we are instructors should be enough of an ego stroke for that weekend...

Just my .02!

SouthernSon

Spoken like a good conscientious instructor that has been around the track a few times!

RaleighSS

never damaged a car but got very surprised by "manual" brakes on a 944 porsche was not expecting the amount of push needed to slow the car down ... I was slow speeds but just off guard ...

froggy47

I carefully read the waiver at our autox event this weekend and it winds up by releasing from "harm" "anyone associated with the event" after mentioning specifics like sponser/organiser/officer/director/ yada.

I suggest all instructors carefully read their clubs waiver. And make it known to the board that they want instructors listed explicitly. Easy to add that if it's not there. Sometimes instructors get left off the list and are only covered "in general"