Here's a link to a book on building your own CD ignition.

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/ignition-systems.html

And here's a kit to build your own transistor ignition.

http://www.electronickits.com/kit/co...ve/VEK2543.htm

Happy building!

Dave T.

 

the first link seems to be on how to 'buy' an ignition system rather than ''build' one.

there may be some merit to the second link as it may take the load off the points and use them as a simple switch to trigger the transistor; enabling the points to last 'forever' (or until the rubbing block wears...). if so, then it is probably an ideal solution and very inexpensive.

the old CD boxes, besides using the points as a switch, also amplified the spark from the coil and extended the spark duration a bit.

this kit would do neither, but it would probably eliminate burnt/pitted points; at the expense of a potential failure of an electronic component. BUT, a switchable bypass could be built into it to minimize that hassle; or it could be simply removed...

Bill

 

Hmmm, I also can't remember any such thread.

 

I've lost spark and stalled because of rubbing block wear on my old '63 Ford pickup. Can't say I was stranded, though. A couple of minutes with a screwdriver and 'eyeballing' the gap got me home. I've also had a shorted condenser, but fortunately that was at home when taking a vehicle out of storage so it was only inconvenient. Points and condenser are a pretty simple and reliable system, if you maintain them.

Having said that I've converted my '60 over to a Crane XR-i Fireball electronic ignition. Only had it in a few months. So far it seems to start better and run smoother. Will it be better long term? Time will tell...

Dave T.

 

If you're going get into a discussion about reliability, best learn the difference between 'random failure' and 'normal wear and tear'.

Using your own methodology, the simple spark plug is 8 times less reliable than points. Why don't you stop using those too?

Oil?
Filters?
Tires?
Belts?

All evil.

 

Nor do I. Points wear out gradually. The replacement/adjustment intervals described by the manufacturers were developed over decades of experience and formed part of a routine tune up. Ignoring or forgetting to perform this scheduled mtce. leads to various warning signs long before the engine would no longer start.

The random, sudden, and totally irrecoverable failures of some electronic units is a different ball game.

 

People still using points haven't discovered the Internet yet

Seriously, from all the electronic ignition questions that come up about ballast resistors, wiring configuration, types of coil to use, distributor shimming, etc. I'm sure that some portion (possibly large portion) of these problems are self-induced. I HAVE been stranded by points - in a VW beetle (no jokes please) in a dark bowling alley parking lot. The points were cracked across one of the contacts - never saw the like before or since.

This is one of those religious debates (like ZDDP vs diesel oil and Win vs Fram oil filters)...its all based mostly on opinion so each to his own I say...

 

wow, 500% failure rate?. Please explain to me how it's possible to have a failure rate that is 5 times the amount of something made? Are you saying people actually bought points, they all failed, these people somehow had the points repaired and than every single one failed again and this repeated another 3 times? If you say 850 million points were were sold than the number of failures were 5 times that amount. Based on that I'm surprised that every single car in the world in the world was stuck on the side of the road and anyone actually managed to ever get anywhere. Where were all these stranded vehicles from 500% of the points sold that failed because I never saw many cars on the side of the road as I was growing up in the 60's and 70's.

before you attempt to argue with me please go back and read what I wrote. Did I mention ANYTHING about modern electronic ignition systems? No I didn't. I carefully made sure that I wrote ELECTRONIC CONVERSION KITS as pertaining to units such as the Pertronix conversion kits, Breakerless SE, Crane unit, etc. These are two very different systems.


needing to "touch the ignition system" does not constitute a "failure" so if I check and possibly have to adjust dwell on my system once a year that doesn't mean my points failed. By failure I am referring to a complete failure and you are stuck, the car dies on you while driving or will not start when you go out to drive it. Wear and tear requiring a common and simple adjustment doesn't mean something has failed.
I know people that have had the same points in their car for over 20 years and still going strong.
Since I was talking about a FAILURE rate between points and electronic conversion kits (remember what this defines!, see above) if you like to bet so much make a bet with yourself and go thru the forum achives. Find how many posts and threads there are about electronic conversion kits failing and the car died and/or would not start, than find how many threads and posts of people with points whose cars died on them while driving or would not start because of points failure. In fact, I challenge you to find any threads at all about someone whose car died on them while driving leaving them stranded because their points failed.

As it's already been pointed out before I could reply, points tend to slowly wear, and they give you warning that it's time to replace them (that's not considered a failure though) but electronic conversion kits fail completely without warning.

 

The reason points are less reliable does not matter, they are still less reliable.

I use the most reliable spark plugs, oil, filter, tires, and belts available. Comparing spark plugs to points is an apples to oranges comparison that makes absolutely no sense.

 

I still want to know how you figure points are less reliable. Again, failure rate is a higher percentage on electronic conversion kits than on points, period!

it's about the same apples to orange comparison you tried to make when saying electronic conversion kits that replace points are the same as modern electronic ignition systems.
In fact, Mikes relationships between those listed items of spark plugs, oil, tires, etc is closer in comparison to points than yours is between electronic conversion kits and modern electronic ignition systems.
What Mike was pointing out is that points can wear (bit that's isn't failure!) as do spark plugs, tires, oil, etc. For example, after installing a spark plug and driving 1,000 miles that plug has some wear on it but that doesn't mean it's now useless or going to leave you stranded on the side of the road so in that aspect it's the same apples to apples comparision to a set of points. Neither sparkplugs nor points have a bad habit of leaving you dead and stranded as electronic conversion kits have been known to do.

 

Well, you've proven that you have no idea what the word 'reliable' means, but not much else.

Maybe one day we'll talk about 'dependability' or 'durability' when you're ready.

Good luck.

 

Five times the number of cars produced with a points ignition system, not five times the number of points sets made.


No. I am saying that every car that was produced with a points ignition had those points replaced at least 5 time (to prevent imminent failure) before the car was removed from service.


Most points sets were/are replaced prior to failure as a matter of precaution because the owners were/are warned (both in the owner's manual and by their mechanic) that failure was/is imminent.

If points don't fail, why do you replace yours every year?


"ELECTRONIC CONVERSION KITS" are "modern electronic ignition systems" and there are many more than just "two very different systems". Even among the brands of "ELECTRONIC CONVERSION KITS" that you have named there are many different types of systems. Therefore, you can not accurately conclude that all (or even any) "ELECTRONIC CONVERSION KITS" have a "percentage of failure...much higher" than points.

Have you completed or reviewed a single scientific study on "ELECTRONIC CONVERSION KITS" to verify that "the percentage of failure on the electronic conversion kits is going to be much higher!"? Since you've provided no data beyond your personal opinion and conjecture, my guess is no.


No, but it does mean you had to work on the ignition system to prevent failure.


I know people that have had the same electronic ignition system in their cars for 20 years and are still going strong. That is anecdotal evidence and no scientific conclusion can be drawn from it.


I have no need to do that. The sample size is much too small and lacks the controls necessary to form a valid conclusion. If you think it will help prove your point, that is a project you should take on.


Try this very thread. Read the post immediately above yours.


Failure is when they stop working. You replace the points in your car yearly because you fear that failure is imminent and you wish to prevent said failure.

 

5 times anything you want. you said a 500% failure rate. That means 5 times the number of anything you chose to reference. You mean to tell me that 5 times the number of cars produced with points actually failed? that's still impossible


who cares how many times the points were replaces before they failed. I can change the points in my car over a dozen times before I reached the cost of a single Pertronixs or Breakerless SE conversion kit. My point, which I've tried to stress to you since the beginning is that FAILURE constitutes imminent failure (using your own words) where the car will not run. Preventative maintenance in replacing a set of points whether it be once or a dozen times does not mean the points failed!


but if they didn't fail than it wasn't a failure! do you change your oil? If you eventually drive enough miles without ever changing it chances are your engine is going to fail on you so based on what you are saying doing basic preventative maintenance of oil changes is the same as saying the oil failed? it didn't fail, the car still runs, it's just that the oil has gotten wear on it and it's time to replace it.

As I stated previously, replacing points in my car every year is completely unnecessary, especially because of the limited miles I put on it, but I do it because I enjoy working on the car and it's my way of spoiling the car with something it doesn't need bit i enjoy doing.

If you are still trying to say that electronic conversion kits are the same as modern electronic ignition systems that you are so far out in left field in this discussion it's not worth bothering to continue to debate this with you. You better research and learn a lot more about ignition systems before you continue in on that line of thought.
Electronic conversion kits, as I've mentioned and are commonly brought up as a topic on here, again, such as Pertronics, Breakerless SE, etc are very different things than "upgraded ignition systems such as MSD systems or modern electronic ignition systems such as you find in your daily driver car. As I keep discussing, the conversion kits sich as the Pertronics, et al, have a higher failure rate, period.

and where is your white paper showing a 500% failure rate on points!


working on something as preventative maintenance does not constitute failure and I enjoy working and fooling around with my car. It's one reason to own an older classic. If I never wanted to open the hood i'd sell it and own a C6. Points or electronic conversion kits, you should still check your timing every now and than to make sure it's correct - does that mean the timing failed? No it doesn't. Do you ever check your oil? does that mean your oil failed? no. "checking" the ignition system doesn't mean it failed


it doesn't? well, come back in 20 years and tell me that you never had a problem with your electronic conversion kit - oh and that EVERYONE you know that happens to have one has never had a problem either and that during those same 20 years ALL threads regarding problems with electronic conversion kits have ceased on this forum and than we will see.


I don't need to, I already know the answer and it's in my favor. A 1 minute trip to the archives would show you that


fine, out of the 850 million points (your own number) one set in a VW failed. That's the first time I've seen anyone post about being left with a dead vehicle in 4.5 years on this forum but I still see issues being discussed weekly on problems with electronic conversion kits on here


THANK YOU!!!! you finally understand. Failure is when they stop working, that's what i've been trying to say all along and failure is the only point that matters.Not maintenance, not wear and tear, not any of that crap. Failure meaning vehicle will not start or it dies while being driven and there is a higher percentage of that on electronic conversion kits than on points.

Personally, i'm done debating with you because except on this last quote of yours you are only going in circles. Enjoy your conversion kit but i sure hope for your sake that you at least carry a set of points in the glove box on the chance that your module fails on yours. I'll be thrilled for you if you NEVER had to rely on those points but just in case something does happen at least you will be able to get home.

 

Ok. OK. Maybe not 100 people telling me that I'm drunk, but I'm gonna lay down anyway. I even wrote Pertronix support and their reply was "You have a voltage problem." Hmm. Damn right, I do. The spark plugs aren't getting the right voltage at the rigt time. Strange that the "voltage problem" isn't a problem when I reinstalled the points. As an aside, I installed in identical Ignitor II unit in my son's 67 Camaro and so far it has performed flawlessly for maybe 1000 miles (that many?)
There are a few things that I know from around 50 years of driving and wrenching automobiles.
1. I have NEVER had a set of points or condensor fail. They to deteriorate and need replacing yes, but never a total 'call for help' failure.
2. The Delco Remy window cap disrtibutors make point replacement, especially with a uniset a rather simple, regular 'tune up' task. The engine will start and run with the uniset points installed right out of the box. The dwell may not be spot on but is easily adjusted. The conventional points will also work right out of the box and can also be easily 'gapped' with a feeler guage or even a match book cover until properly dwelled.
3. If a 'poinless' conversion does fail ....and you are not carrying an expensive replacement module, AAA is going to have to dispatch a roll-back... if your cell 'phone is woking. And folks, there really are places where there is still no cellular service. You know; some of those place where you would like to be anyway.
4. Replacing a failed 'conversion' with points requires removing the distribotor. An empty highway somewhere in New Mexico is not an ideal spot to be doing this sort of thing.
5. Contrary to product advertising and most individual's experience and testimonials, these unit WILL fail at least sometimes. Before my experience with the Ignitor II, the Impala that I was driving had to be towed because the Pertronix Ignitor I that was 'properly' installed in the distributor failed; something that I was assured by Pertronix would never happen with the Ignitor II. Grrr.
6. Needless to say, I obviously have a rather shallow learning curve. (I even had one of their high output low restance coils crack at the base of the negative terminal.) Pertronix cannot depend on me to be an advocate for their products.
7. Think I'm 'gonna stick with good 'ol breaker points and replace them when it's tune-up time... or as required.
Thanks to everone for their input. It's been enlightening. I really didn't intend to stir up such a maelstrom, but it's been educational ....and entertaining.
Thanks again,
Bob

 

Ok. OK. Maybe not 100 people telling me that I'm drunk, but I'm gonna lay down anyway. I even wrote Pertronix support and their reply was "You have a voltage problem." Hmm. Damn right, I do! The spark plugs aren't getting the right voltage at the rigt time. Strange that the "voltage problem" isn't a problem when I reinstalled the points. As an aside, I installed in identical Ignitor II unit in my son's 67 Camaro and so far it has performed flawlessly for maybe 1000 miles (that many?)
There are a few things that I know from around 50 years of driving and wrenching automobiles.
1. I have NEVER had a set of points or condensor fail. They to deteriorate and need replacing yes, but never a total 'call for help' failure.
2. The Delco Remy window cap disrtibutors make point replacement, especially with a uniset a rather simple, regular 'tune up' task. The engine will start and run with the uniset points installed right out of the box. The dwell may not be spot on but is easily adjusted. The conventional points will also work right out of the box and can also be easily 'gapped' with a feeler guage or even a match book cover until properly dwelled.
3. If a 'poinless' conversion does fail ....and you are not carrying an expensive replacement module, AAA is going to have to dispatch a roll-back... if your cell 'phone is woking. And folks, there really are places where there is still no cellular service. You know; some of those place where you would like to be anyway.
4. Replacing a failed 'conversion' with points requires removing the distribotor. An empty highway somewhere in New Mexico is not an ideal spot to be doing this sort of thing.
5. Contrary to product advertising and most individual's experience and testimonials, these unit WILL fail at least sometimes. Before my experience with the Ignitor II, the Impala that I was driving had to be towed because the Pertronix Ignitor I that was 'properly' installed in the distributor failed; something that I was assured by Pertronix would never happen with the Ignitor II. Grrr.
6. Needless to say, I obviously have a rather shallow learning curve. (I even had one of their high output low restance coils crack at the base of the negative terminal.) Pertronix cannot depend on me to be an advocate for their products.
7. Think I'm 'gonna stick with good 'ol breaker points and replace them when it's tune-up time... or as required.
Thanks to everone for their input. It's been enlightening. I really didn't intend to stir up such a maelstrom, but it's been educational ....and entertaining.
Thanks again,
Bob

 

Bob,

Frankly I think you have made the correct decision for your Vette. There are applications where an enhanced ignition is used or needed on a relatively stock older Vette, but in 99% of the cases, it is due to something else "broken", and the ignition change is a bandaid (example, a poor fuel/air distribution or mix resulting in lean/rich cylinders that require extra juice to fire them, or an undiagnosed mechanical issue within the distributor).

As for the point replacement modules, they work for the guys who won't or can't use the opportunity to properly tune up the old Vette occasionally. As I have stated before, just replacing the points does not result in zero periodic maintenance of the distributor. Cent. advance needs a dab of grease and verify the advance stop is still in place plus checking spring function, rotors and caps need checking and cleaning, vac. advance can needs to be checked for a blown diaphram and freedom of movement, shaft/bushings need to be checked for wear, etc., etc. And I have seen some electronic modules fail, which adds to the aggravation of purchasing a component to "reduce" worry, and then it strands you out in the boonies. And contrary to what some guys say, without changing the coil (to a coil designed to be optimized with the module) at the same time, that new electronic module is actually decreasing the coil output by a small degree (due to the inherent increase in resistance of electronic switches). Note that a set of points are current limited (an increase in current will burn up the points), whereas an electronic switch can easily be designed to increase it's current handling ability, resulting in a stronger spark. Not taking advantage of this is foolish (if adding an electronic points replacement module in the first place).

Note that I have experienced a set of Delco points that failed (the movable point spring actually broke). It is a rarity agreed, but crap happens. Does this mean that points are inherently failure prone? Obviously not, but poor manufacturing or materials plays a part and the more parts, the more prone to eventual failure. The beauty of most parts on our Vettes is that they fail slowly with ample time to warn us that they need replacing (if we look and pay attention to what the vehicle is telling us!). That sluggishness or noise is not there saying everything is fine!

With all that said, I am still in the points category. If I need to get in there and check the distributor occasionally anyway, then checking and setting the points is a no brainer. And my 62 is not "stock". With dual AFBs and an Offenhauser intake that has poor distribution at low speeds, plus headers and a decent performance cam, it performs absolutely great with a single set of Hi-Po Delco or Echlin points.

One last note: A CD ignition does not increase spark duration. The duration is actually much shorter than a typical inductive coil spark, and the prime reason you not find them on OEM emission controlled vehicles (too short a duration to ensure complete combustion through out the cold/hot and full rpm range of conditions for minimum emissions). Now the MSD (multiple spark discharge) CD ignitions cover that up by firing several times during the power stroke, but then again their overall reliability is very poor (for a variety of reasons) in comparison to OEM requirements.

Plasticman

 

Dave T. (ecorse66), Thanks for the kit info. I may just get that kit and be the guinea pig!!! I'll post the results.

Mark

 

BION, this is a possibility. I run a Mallory HyFire IV triggered by a set of Accel points. Car always ran fine.

Lars did a tune-up on the engine (his usual..., shim the distributor, adjust, adjust carb, etc.) and all of a sudden, when you jumped on it, it would cut out under load when the secondaries opened (due to increased cylinder pressures presumably).

With the Mallory, if the box fails, there is a simple jumper plug to install and you are back on points (takes about 30 seconds). I put the jumper in and removed the ballast resistor by-pass wire and we jumped back in the car and it ran great!

OK, the next day I pulled the fuse on the Mallory and it had corrosion leading to a weakened current flow (?). I cleaned the fuse and its holder, reinstalled it, and the engine again ran fine to redline on the Mallory.

Another case in point. The points can get out of adjustment, but the Mallory box compensates. Regardless of when the point "strike" or for how long, the Mallory sets the duration. At one point I put in the Mallory bypass jumper and the car wouldn't even fire because the points were so far out of adjustment. I reconnected the Mallory and the car ran fine and this let me reset the points "on the fly." Afterwards, the car again ran fine with or without the Mallory.

BTW, with the Mallory, the points only act as a switch and don't carry any real current. I've had the same set of points for ~15-20 years and they look like new (though the car does sit most of the time).

I have had one Mallory box fail, but it was the fault of the auto shop. The Mallory instructions clearly state "Do not jump start the car with the box connected or failure may result." They did and it did.
I went to the shop, pulled the jumper plug out of the glove box, popped it on, and drove home. The next day I ordered another Mallory.

 

[QUOTE=bowtyebob;2. The Delco Remy window cap disrtibutors make point replacement, especially with a uniset a rather simple, regular 'tune up' task. The engine will start and run with the uniset points installed right out of the box. The dwell may not be spot on but is easily adjusted. The conventional points will also work right out of the box and can also be easily 'gapped' with a feeler guage or even a match book cover until properly dwelled.

Think I'm 'gonna stick with good 'ol breaker points and replace them when it's tune-up time... or as required.


When I bought my '65 coupe in '72, I did a tune-up on it. That included new points, condenser, rotor, cap. I have not touched that distributor but once since. I had to file the points to get it started. They got a little fuzz on them from sitting over the winter in a damp place. I filed them and set the dwell. Points/condenser back then was about $3.50/set.

I'm gonna' see if I can get at least another ten years out of those points.

 

My compliments to Plasticman. It's refreshing to read the rare post that shows someone who has a good technical grasp of ignitions. BarryK (another forum member I respect) can testify to how many times I have tried to offer up ignition information, only to give up in frustration after dealing with posters who aren't inclined to let facts and physics change their minds. I'm actually somewhat renewed at this moment.

Toddalin: I respectfully do not share your enthusiam for Mallory products. Any ignition system that fails due to jump start is lacking in quality of design or assembly. JMO.