Possibly so, but please bring the car for display purposes, the vast majority of NCRS folks admire resto rods as much as factory examples.

 

I am new to this game, but my objective is to get Top Flight with the car I will drive a couple of thousand miles a year. My hope is to do it primarily based on originality and keeping it as clean as new as possible. But it looks more like a car that has been driven a couple of weeks than a car off of the showroom floor. It Top Flighted in the 96's (with the wrong carb, wheels and tires among a few smaller items) seven years ago after restoration. It has been kept extremely well since although it has added few thousand miles and a couple of very tiny paint chips.

Am I fighting an up hill battle or is what I am shooting for realistic?

 

If your car already Top Flighted with a roughly 96% score RECENTLY (the last 10 years), and you fix those things you mentioned (carb, wheels, etc) you should be a STRONG contender for another Top Flight.

I will also say though, if the original TF award was many years ago, it will be harder to TF the car now. The reason is that the overall level of knowledge about these cars continues to grow. So, in essence, the judging standard is getting harder and harder. How much harder? Not HUGELY so, but it is a margin that is significant.

 

Mike Ward is a good ambassador for the NCRS, an organization I am proud to be a member of. I will reiterate some things both he and others have mentioned:

Flight Judging scores a car against the appearance of originality. Deviations will result in a deduction, the size of which will depend on the extent of the deviation. So a set of reproduction wheel covers might be a small deduction if there are discernible differences from original wheel covers. Likewise, a set of Cragar mags would result in a full deduction for that component because the in now way appear original.

There are a set number of points allocated to the various component groups and sub-groups on the vehicle, and experienced judges tend to be fairly uniform in the deductions for various deviations.

Cars stand on their own merits on the day of judging. Scores are disclosed only to the owner. Awards (Top Flight, Second Flight, etc.) are disclosed the the general membership in a chart published in The Restorer magazine. Nothing else about what was correct or incorrect on the car is published anywhere.

It is possible to get a Top Flight on a car with a non-original engine provided the rest of the car is of a high quality. Same goes for BC/CC paint, modern tires, SS brakes, etc.

As Mike mentioned, the NCRS gives a very generous point allowance for driving your car to an event. Cleanliness is not really a factor in this judging. Out of 4510 possible points (not including driving allowance), only 80 points are allocated to cleanliness. These 80 are divided by the 4 main divisions of chassis, interior, exterior, and mechanical. In general, point deductions for cleanliness are very slight. A pretty clean but driven car might only loose a few points for cleanliness mechanical, exterior and chassis and potentially none for interior.

I do recall that a few years ago Roy got a Top Flight at a national convention (where the judges are the most experienced and awards are consequently harder to earn). His car had aftermarket wire wheels, a trailer hitch, and a bunch of other "accessories," and had been driven to the event and was presumably dirty from the road. The point here is that the car had some owner inspired additions but was otherwise very original and did quite well for itself. With all due respect, the owner should be embarrassed for some of the things he suggests. One would almost think he had an axe to grind for some reason . . .

 

[QUOTE=Joel 67;1570968811]Mike Ward is a good ambassador for the NCRS, an organization I am proud to be a member of. I will reiterate some things both he and others have mentioned:

Flight Judging scores a car against the appearance of originality. Deviations will result in a deduction, the size of which will depend on the extent of the deviation. So a set of reproduction wheel covers might be a small deduction if there are discernible differences from original wheel covers. Likewise, a set of Cragar mags would result in a full deduction for that component because the in now way appear original.

There are a set number of points allocated to the various component groups and sub-groups on the vehicle, and experienced judges tend to be fairly uniform in the deductions for various deviations.

Cars stand on their own merits on the day of judging. Scores are disclosed only to the owner. Awards (Top Flight, Second Flight, etc.) are disclosed the the general membership in a chart published in The Restorer magazine. Nothing else about what was correct or incorrect on the car is published anywhere.

It is possible to get a Top Flight on a car with a non-original engine provided the rest of the car is of a high quality. Same goes for BC/CC paint, modern tires, SS brakes, etc.

As Mike mentioned, the NCRS gives a very generous point allowance for driving your car to an event. Cleanliness is not really a factor in this judging. Out of 4510 possible points (not including driving allowance), only 80 points are allocated to cleanliness. These 80 are divided by the 4 main divisions of chassis, interior, exterior, and mechanical. In general, point deductions for cleanliness are very slight. A pretty clean but driven car might only loose a few points for cleanliness mechanical, exterior and chassis and potentially none for interior.

I do recall that a few years ago Roy got a Top Flight at a national convention (where the judges are the most experienced and awards are consequently harder to earn). His car had aftermarket wire wheels, a trailer hitch, and a bunch of other "accessories," and had been driven to the event and was presumably dirty from the road. The point here is that the car had some owner inspired additions but was otherwise very original and did quite well for itself. With all due respect, the owner should be embarrassed for some of the things he suggests. One would almost think he had an axe to grind for some reason . . .[/QUOTE]


With respect to every one I don't understand why I should be embarrassed pointing out that a driven Corvette cant reach the high point of 99 if it's driven that a trailer Corvette can.
Why do I have a axe to grind ? My NCRS number of #182 should have some weight in pointing out many points can be lost on a driven Corvette for parts or area that show (wear, rust, dirt, grease, polish, tint and more) THAT" IT!!
I don't see driven Corvette using cotton ball sticks, tire covers when driving on to the judging field.
I will say again YES a driven Corvette can make top flight BUT cant compete reaching a high score of 99 or 100 points.I understand the trailer queens and admirer the time and money to have a Corvette like that. But that is the reason you rarely ever see driven Corvettes (now days) enter the NCRS judging because those people feel they cant compete (right or wrong) , I have and got a top flight!
I simply don't understand why some people cant understand what I'm trying to say with out bashing me because I drive and talk about people that drive their Corvette.

How many of you have heard Corvette owners say they cant compete against a Trailered Corvette or don't have the money to do so' but don't realize they CAN make a top flight.
To know how many Corvettes are being judged I just have to count the trailers in the parking lot!
Why is there just a hand full of driven Corvettes ever go to NCRS and if they do there in the Sportsman glass.
Why does SACC have over 60 vary nice and near correct original Corvettes show up at there convention only?
I've understood for many years why people don't like me for asking this and that's why (I) started SACC.
I thought after being out of NCRS for over 25 years I could now ask, but it seems NOT! I ether embarrass myself or have a axe to grind.
This is just my opinion but to get more driven Corvettes back to NCRS there should be a driven ONLY top flight class.
Now those that read this can dump on me ,I'm a big boy and can take it but I should be able to have my opinion too.

 

I used to "drive" my '70 but still would score ~95 points for a Top Flight. Reason that it didn't place higher had nothing to do with it being driven. It had to do with replacement parts and a "too perfect" paint job.

Sure a driven car can compete with a trailer queen..., and they do. But the owner also has to be "driven" to keep the car in that kind of shape.

BTW, the less options your car has, the easier you can get a better score as there are less things to take points off of. Remember, you start with all the points and everything is deduction from there. If your car never had it, there is nothing to deduct from.

 

Roy, I respect your opinion but you seem to be missing the point that Mike and others have made: that the NCRS does not judge one car against another. There is no need to compete against a trailered car because it is not a competition at all. Getting a Top Flight is a very worthy goal for a Corvette owner who likes original cars. It is sort of like a runner deciding to run a marathon. At the end of the day, everyone who finishes what they set out to do is the winner. To learn something new about your car or about how these things were built is the goal, not achieving a 100%. Especially since no one but the owner and possibly Roy Sinor know if they got a 94% or a 99.85. And based only on the divisions I've judged, I'd say there are a lot of old, dirty, rusty unrestored cars that get up in the high 90's. These are the 1, 2, 3 and up Star cars in Bowtie judging.

You like to post about how everyone in the NCRS has a trailer queen, etc. but you are dead wrong on that one. There are a lot of driven cars, especially at the chapter and regional level. But driving a 40+ year old car 200 to 2000 miles is a risk so it is understandable that people want to trailer their cars, especially in those months after they finish their restoration and work out all the operational kinks. Plus not all owners have the skills to fix anything that might happen on a longer road trip. But whenever people post this type of stuff portraying NCRS events as a bunch of trailer queens they potentially turn people off on the NCRS people who are somehow lesser enthusiasts about the hobby. We as members should encourage people to drive their cars and get involved with the NCRS, not post this disapproving nonsense.

Yes you have been a member for a long time, and you have my respect as a knowledgeable car person and also as someone with a talent for restoring and keeping these things on the road. But I'd prefer we all focus on encouraging participation instead of making comments that most will view as negative. Especially as a long standing member who is highly respected on this and other message boards. In my opinion a respected elder should strive to set the example and to lead through doing.

Just my $.02

 

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

Ok, I'll say it, being a complete judging rookie.....if you start with 4500 points why can't you have a 200 point car or what am I missing?.This is the part I just can't grasp

 

If you start with 4500 and finish with say 4400, you divide 4400 by 4500 to come up with a %. That is what is meant by a 100 pt car. It is actually 100%

 

Given the average demographic of NCRS members, I would think this would be job #1.

When I, as a 35 year old person who is a member of NCRS, go to an event, I am the youngest person there by a LANDSLIDE. And the gap to the next oldest person is not 5 years.......it's a little bigger than that.

We need people of Gen X and Gen Y who are really interested in the preservation and enjoyment of these old cars to carry the flag for NCRS in the future. Otherwise the knowledge that will be lost is frightening.

 

Thanks Joel, now I can sleep tonight

 

I agree with you, hence my passion for this. I am your elder by just a year or two at 37 years old. I do not like being the youngest guy there so I want to encourage others to get involved. It is a lot of fun if you do!

 

Well expressed first handed experience. Thanks.

 

Condition points are a very small part of the judging. Correctness is what is most important. Condition becomes a much bigger issue if your going for a Duntov, etc., where you have fewer points to give away.

I have an 81 that I bought new that has 44,000 miles on it. This car is completely original and unrestored. It easily Top Flighted (even before the driving miles bonus). The car shows some grease, rusted components, a small tear in the drivers seat and a bonding strip seam thats cracked, but since everything on it is original, the condition points weren't enough to keep it from Top Flighting.

Cars aren't judged against each other, but instead are judged against how the car should have appeared when delivered new. It is possible for every car in a class (or none) to receive a Top Flight.

The further from stock a car is, the less likely it is to receive a Flight Award. The wrong block, incorrect color, or an "entire incorrect chassis", pretty much guarantees you'll get nothing higher than a Second Flight.

 

I went to Bloomington Gold this year and it occured to me that at 42 years old I had to be in the bottom 10% (age wise) of classic Corvette/car people.

When I was in high school and college my buddies and I were driving the Chevelle SS's, Novas and GTO's, while most other "car" people were driving (or dreaming of driving) the 1980 Z-28's and Trans Am's. Now those guys are interested in the latest and greatest just like they always have been. I am not sure it matters a great deal what you do, Gen X and Y have other interersts for the most part. As the baby boomers start to leave their old vehicles to their families I beleive their will be alot if old muscle hitting the streets. In addition to less interest the values will probably go down. I feel the love affair with classic cars will eventually become a thing of the past with the exception of a very small group. Who knows, maybe that 66 GTO and 1970 LS-6 Chevelle will be within my reach sooner than later.

I am glad I do not do this for an investment and just for the love of it.

 

Roy, I saw your former national top flight car only got a second flight in Vegas. You need to quit wearing it out on the road and get that thing back on the trailer quick.

 

Don't even try!

 

You mean Tahoe, remember any flight award is only good for that DAY, the next day it's just an other Corvette. So at any new meet a Corvette could be a third, second or first flight Corvette "Different judges". I don't see ever having it judged again I just enjoy driving it to much .

 

As many have mentioned already, there is no reason you cannot both drive your car and have it judged.