Summit Racing Oil - High Amount of ZDDP (1800) - Anyone Using it?
11-01-2009, 10:20 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
This isn't true. If you got to the Chevelle site or Nova site , there are very recent tests of the VR1 where it tested right where they advertise. There are also tests of the Spectro oils, which tested very good as well. There are pages and pages of threads over there as well as on bobistheoilguy. Also of the new CJ4 diesel oils, Delo seems to have the highest zddp levels.
Bill
Bill
Last edited by babbah; 11-01-2009 at 10:27 PM.
11-02-2009, 04:46 AM
#22
Drifting
ZDDP 1600 to 1800 ppm is way too much for your every day engine that is expected to last 8 years or more. ZDDP over 1400 ppm (race oil) in your every day engine can cause problems including some etching and corrosion over time, do to different chemical elements that are added to protect race engines when push beyond its limits. These additives can break down considerably over long oil changing intervals. Resulting a change in properties with the addition of small amounts of moisture from constant cooling and heating of the oil over a period of time, compared to nominal running hours when properly used.
I don't know of any API certified, S or C category oils, that has over 1400 ppm. If you find one please let me know!
OE valve trains certainly don't need more than 1200 to 1400 ppm. Check to see if your oil is API certified, if not! You will have to rely on the manufactures claim alone, praying that the non-API certified oil has the correct additives you need. It's a crap shoot!
Just about any oil will run without short term problems in a vintage engine. The difference between the best and the worst oil would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment, and a long list of lab tests, comparing the results. That is what API certification is all about.
Remember API is independent, others that do not carry the API certified logo, maybe selling you snakeoil... It's your engine!!!
Someone told me once that he uses a high quality grade racing oil, and it runs great. He said many of his racing friends use it with no problems. I asked how long have you been using this oil. Little over a year 5000 to 7000 miles, why? I replied most race engines are rebuilt 3 times or more during that time.... How do you know it works well for long term everyday engines? No reply!
rustylugnuts
I don't know of any API certified, S or C category oils, that has over 1400 ppm. If you find one please let me know!
OE valve trains certainly don't need more than 1200 to 1400 ppm. Check to see if your oil is API certified, if not! You will have to rely on the manufactures claim alone, praying that the non-API certified oil has the correct additives you need. It's a crap shoot!
Just about any oil will run without short term problems in a vintage engine. The difference between the best and the worst oil would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment, and a long list of lab tests, comparing the results. That is what API certification is all about.
Remember API is independent, others that do not carry the API certified logo, maybe selling you snakeoil... It's your engine!!!
Someone told me once that he uses a high quality grade racing oil, and it runs great. He said many of his racing friends use it with no problems. I asked how long have you been using this oil. Little over a year 5000 to 7000 miles, why? I replied most race engines are rebuilt 3 times or more during that time.... How do you know it works well for long term everyday engines? No reply!
rustylugnuts
Last edited by rustylugnuts; 11-02-2009 at 05:33 AM.
11-02-2009, 08:12 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Mar 2001
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Make sure you read through entirely as things change as time goes by on the threads. Most of the more recent tests are towards the end of the threads but it is all good reading anyway. The Nova site thread deals mostly with the VR1. I am running a big solid flat tappet in my car so I love researching this stuff. http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195620
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283416
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243928
Last edited by 69ttop502; 11-02-2009 at 08:21 AM.
11-02-2009, 08:30 AM
#24
Drifting
Here you go. Should be enough reading to kill a whole day. Most of the more recent tests are towards the end of the threads but it is all good reading anyway. The Nova site thread deals mostly with the VR1.
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195620
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283416
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243928
Most of the more recent tests are towards the end of the threads but it is all good reading anyway. The Nova site thread deals mostly with the VR1. http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195620
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283416
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243928
Just my two cents.... rustylugnuts
11-02-2009, 06:41 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
ZDDP 1600 to 1800 ppm is way too much for your every day engine that is expected to last 8 years or more. ZDDP over 1400 ppm (race oil) in your every day engine can cause problems including some etching and corrosion over time, do to different chemical elements that are added to protect race engines when push beyond its limits. These additives can break down considerably over long oil changing intervals. Resulting a change in properties with the addition of small amounts of moisture from constant cooling and heating of the oil over a period of time, compared to nominal running hours when properly used.
I don't know of any API certified, S or C category oils, that has over 1400 ppm. If you find one please let me know!
OE valve trains certainly don't need more than 1200 to 1400 ppm. Check to see if your oil is API certified, if not! You will have to rely on the manufactures claim alone, praying that the non-API certified oil has the correct additives you need. It's a crap shoot!
Just about any oil will run without short term problems in a vintage engine. The difference between the best and the worst oil would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment, and a long list of lab tests, comparing the results. That is what API certification is all about.
Remember API is independent, others that do not carry the API certified logo, maybe selling you snakeoil... It's your engine!!!
Someone told me once that he uses a high quality grade racing oil, and it runs great. He said many of his racing friends use it with no problems. I asked how long have you been using this oil. Little over a year 5000 to 7000 miles, why? I replied most race engines are rebuilt 3 times or more during that time.... How do you know it works well for long term everyday engines? No reply!
rustylugnuts
I don't know of any API certified, S or C category oils, that has over 1400 ppm. If you find one please let me know!
OE valve trains certainly don't need more than 1200 to 1400 ppm. Check to see if your oil is API certified, if not! You will have to rely on the manufactures claim alone, praying that the non-API certified oil has the correct additives you need. It's a crap shoot!
Just about any oil will run without short term problems in a vintage engine. The difference between the best and the worst oil would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment, and a long list of lab tests, comparing the results. That is what API certification is all about.
Remember API is independent, others that do not carry the API certified logo, maybe selling you snakeoil... It's your engine!!!
Someone told me once that he uses a high quality grade racing oil, and it runs great. He said many of his racing friends use it with no problems. I asked how long have you been using this oil. Little over a year 5000 to 7000 miles, why? I replied most race engines are rebuilt 3 times or more during that time.... How do you know it works well for long term everyday engines? No reply!
rustylugnuts
What are these "corrosive properties" you speak of?
11-02-2009, 07:19 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.
11-02-2009, 07:40 PM
#28
Race Director
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This is a quote from "Duke W." who is well known here. This subject has been beaten to death. Do a search.
First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.
First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.
Originally Posted by Jim Lockwood (2750) View Post
How about explaining what these are and what constitutes "long term".
Thanks,
Jim
How about explaining what these are and what constitutes "long term".
Thanks,
Jim
I don't have any detailed information on them - read a reference to them in some papers/articles I looked at including one from a GM engineer. Maybe you or someone else can research it. I'm getting tired of being the only guy...
Long term would mean years, which would apply to most of us and our cars.
Jim
11-02-2009, 08:06 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
It says "Meets A.P.I. SL Quality levels" whatever that is worth.
http://goldenmotorguard.com/cart/ind...&products_id=3
http://goldenmotorguard.com/cart/ind...&products_id=3
"Motor-Guard® contains exceptional uptreats of anti-wear additives (1,800 ppm of zinc and phosphorus) to protect flat tappets, reduce wear, extend component life, and provide tremendous lubrication protection in extreme heat conditions."
Either they are violating the API standards guideline or theyre playing a game of BS.
11-02-2009, 08:49 PM
#31
Team Owner
That's what I run....do you have a source where you got the zinc/phosphorus numbers....I'd love to read it...?
ACTUALLY I found it...here is what Mobil claims are the ZDDP levels in their various synthetics:
ACTUALLY I found it...here is what Mobil claims are the ZDDP levels in their various synthetics:
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 11-02-2009 at 09:01 PM.
11-02-2009, 08:54 PM
#32
Looking at the API website on API SL oil it states that SL oil has a limit of 1000 ppm P. The Spectro ad states
"Motor-Guard® contains exceptional uptreats of anti-wear additives (1,800 ppm of zinc and phosphorus) to protect flat tappets, reduce wear, extend component life, and provide tremendous lubrication protection in extreme heat conditions."
Either they are violating the API standards guideline or theyre playing a game of BS.
"Motor-Guard® contains exceptional uptreats of anti-wear additives (1,800 ppm of zinc and phosphorus) to protect flat tappets, reduce wear, extend component life, and provide tremendous lubrication protection in extreme heat conditions."
Either they are violating the API standards guideline or theyre playing a game of BS.
Thanks,
Steve
11-02-2009, 09:04 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
This is a quote from "Duke W." who is well known here. This subject has been beaten to death. Do a search.
First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.
First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.
No one seems to know what these so called "corrosive properties" are.
Seems to me that every time oil and ZDDP is mentioned the
starts flying. 
If you stop and think about it; it is a very simple question.
The research that I have done tells me that phosphorus clogs catalytic converters (which I could care less about). Then there is some sulfur in "dino" oil. But it is in ALL "dino" oil. So that can't be it.
I just want to know what they are.
11-02-2009, 09:47 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
11-02-2009, 10:25 PM
#35
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I've read many of the same SAE papers to which Duke refers and I've seen the same references to the corrosion issue that he saw. I'm convinced it's real. Unfortunately, none of the papers I have make any attempt to explain its exact nature.
I'm sure there is an SAE paper that lays it all out. You could go to the SAE web page, search for papers that discuss the corrosion problem, and buy them. That's what I did when I was on my quest to learn about the zinc/phosphorus issue.
Jim
11-04-2009, 05:12 AM
#36
Drifting
See, that is the problem.
No one seems to know what these so called "corrosive properties" are.
Seems to me that every time oil and ZDDP is mentioned the starts flying.
If you stop and think about it; it is a very simple question.
The research that I have done tells me that phosphorus clogs catalytic converters (which I could care less about). Then there is some sulfur in "dino" oil. But it is in ALL "dino" oil. So that can't be it.
I just want to know what they are.
No one seems to know what these so called "corrosive properties" are.
Seems to me that every time oil and ZDDP is mentioned the
starts flying. If you stop and think about it; it is a very simple question.
The research that I have done tells me that phosphorus clogs catalytic converters (which I could care less about). Then there is some sulfur in "dino" oil. But it is in ALL "dino" oil. So that can't be it.
I just want to know what they are.
If you don't like what was written, then just do a google search under: ZDDP! That will keep you occupied for about 4 hours, and then let us know what you found.
rustylugnuts
Last edited by rustylugnuts; 11-04-2009 at 05:15 AM.
11-04-2009, 08:38 AM
#37
Le Mans Master
Can you not read?
knight37128
11-04-2009, 09:09 AM
#39
Le Mans Master
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. 
Why you would come on here a spread miss-information is beyond me.
You say there are "corrosive properties" in racing oil. You have nothing to back it up. Do you think that I will believe you?
The reason why race engines have the oil changed more often is the gas getting into the oil. Most are running lower ring pressure so more gas get into the oil. (in case you didn't know; gas will break down oil)
Until you come up with some kind of information on your so called "corrosive properties"; I will call every time you even think of mentioning it.
knight37128
Why you would come on here a spread miss-information is beyond me.
You say there are "corrosive properties" in racing oil. You have nothing to back it up. Do you think that I will believe you?
The reason why race engines have the oil changed more often is the gas getting into the oil.
Most are running lower ring pressure so more gas get into the oil. (in case you didn't know; gas will break down oil) Until you come up with some kind of information on your so called "corrosive properties"; I will call
every time you even think of mentioning it. knight37128
11-04-2009, 09:17 AM
#40
Drifting
The sky is falling, the sky is falling.
Why you would come on here a spread miss-information is beyond me.
You say there are "corrosive properties" in racing oil. You have nothing to back it up. Do you think that I will believe you?
The reason why race engines have the oil changed more often is the gas getting into the oil. Most are running lower ring pressure so more gas get into the oil. (in case you didn't know; gas will break down oil)
Until you come up with some kind of information on your so called "corrosive properties"; I will call every time you even think of mentioning it.
knight37128
Why you would come on here a spread miss-information is beyond me.
You say there are "corrosive properties" in racing oil. You have nothing to back it up. Do you think that I will believe you?
The reason why race engines have the oil changed more often is the gas getting into the oil.
Most are running lower ring pressure so more gas get into the oil. (in case you didn't know; gas will break down oil) Until you come up with some kind of information on your so called "corrosive properties"; I will call
every time you even think of mentioning it. knight37128
