409?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,892
Likes: 168
From: Middletown Ohio
2016 C1 of Year Finalist
Outstanding engine, will look wild in your C2.
I especially like the induction system.
Someone recently had a rare old mechanical Hilborn on Ebay for a 409, one of only a handful made.
Please post some pictures when done.
I especially like the induction system.
Someone recently had a rare old mechanical Hilborn on Ebay for a 409, one of only a handful made.
Please post some pictures when done.
Last edited by ohiovet; Apr 26, 2014 at 08:24 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 14,632
Likes: 4,683
From: Mustang OK
2026 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2025 c1 of the Year - Modified Winner
2024 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2015 C1 of the Year Finalist
ROGER, ROGER, ROGER!!!!
You're cool. There were no daggers at you, they were at the person who wrote the INCORRECT information about the Z11 cars. FOR A FACT, there were only a few built, thus, it's hard to get all the correct facts/information. Even though Z11 was a genuine RPO, VERY FEW people knew about them (ie, bona fide racers). By making the Z11 a genuine RPO, that made it a legitimate method for Chevrolet to make them available to the racers.
These guys who sometimes print erroneous stuff (as Verne mentioned) simply piggy back off of other stuff that they have read in the past, which of course was incorrect to begin with and they just continue to pass it along. As a result, the REAL enthusiests who really want to know, don't always get the correct info.
If you READ what is often written, and pay attention to what is said, it is pretty easy to recognize that some of these writers are just trying to make a fast buck with their BS.
NO, I darn sure DO NOT know it all, but I DO KNOW what I know. And when things get beyond what I know, I try hard to keep quiet.
You're cool. There were no daggers at you, they were at the person who wrote the INCORRECT information about the Z11 cars. FOR A FACT, there were only a few built, thus, it's hard to get all the correct facts/information. Even though Z11 was a genuine RPO, VERY FEW people knew about them (ie, bona fide racers). By making the Z11 a genuine RPO, that made it a legitimate method for Chevrolet to make them available to the racers.
These guys who sometimes print erroneous stuff (as Verne mentioned) simply piggy back off of other stuff that they have read in the past, which of course was incorrect to begin with and they just continue to pass it along. As a result, the REAL enthusiests who really want to know, don't always get the correct info.
If you READ what is often written, and pay attention to what is said, it is pretty easy to recognize that some of these writers are just trying to make a fast buck with their BS.
NO, I darn sure DO NOT know it all, but I DO KNOW what I know. And when things get beyond what I know, I try hard to keep quiet.
Last edited by DZAUTO; Feb 3, 2017 at 12:10 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 13,685
Likes: 61
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,151
Likes: 481
From: "You may all go to Hell- and I will go to Texas- Davy Crockett
St. Jude Donor '12
Here are a couple of pictures of a badazz 409 from back in the day. Coke Royal was buddies with Kelly Chadwick, and could run with Dickie Harrell.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,711
Likes: 179
From: Hightstown NJ
ROGER, ROGER, ROGER!!!!
You're cool. There were no daggers at you, they were at the person who wrote the INCORRECT information about the Z11 cars. FOR A FACT, there were only a few built, thus, it's hard to get all the correct facts/information. Even though Z11 was a genuine PRO, VERY FEW people knew about them (ie, bona fide racers). By making the Z11 a genuine RPO, that made it a legitimate method for Chevrolet to make them available to the racers.
These guys who sometimes print erroneous stuff (as Verne mentioned) simply piggy back off of other stuff that they have read in the past, which of course was incorrect to begin with and they just continue to pass it along. As a result, the REAL enthusiests who really want to know, don't always get the correct info.
If you READ what is often written, and pay attention to what is said, it is pretty easy to recognize that some of these writers are just trying to make a fast buck with their BS.
NO, I darn sure DO NOT know it all, but I DO KNOW what I know. And when things get beyond what I know, I try hard to keep quiet.
You're cool. There were no daggers at you, they were at the person who wrote the INCORRECT information about the Z11 cars. FOR A FACT, there were only a few built, thus, it's hard to get all the correct facts/information. Even though Z11 was a genuine PRO, VERY FEW people knew about them (ie, bona fide racers). By making the Z11 a genuine RPO, that made it a legitimate method for Chevrolet to make them available to the racers.
These guys who sometimes print erroneous stuff (as Verne mentioned) simply piggy back off of other stuff that they have read in the past, which of course was incorrect to begin with and they just continue to pass it along. As a result, the REAL enthusiests who really want to know, don't always get the correct info.
If you READ what is often written, and pay attention to what is said, it is pretty easy to recognize that some of these writers are just trying to make a fast buck with their BS.
NO, I darn sure DO NOT know it all, but I DO KNOW what I know. And when things get beyond what I know, I try hard to keep quiet.
I know a few guys who have devoted the last 30 years of their lives researching the '63 Z-11 cars. They tell me that 49 are known now and "possibly" all 50. the VINs are the hardest things to confirm. None of them has written a magazine article, a book (yet) or posted on an internet site with the information they have gathered. People need to realize that not everything that is known to some has been published or proclaimed on the net.
Anyone can become an "expert" on ANY subject in ten minutes on the internet today - but they only learn what has been published by others. Those who really do the research and find the truth about things sometimes just do it for their own interest and share it with like minded historians, never calling attention to themselves. Sharing is something on their to-do list, but not until the research is completed.
Verne
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,415
Likes: 154
Hey guys I love the 409 discussion. I am putting one in my 64 and have a thread on it here. I'm not sure how to put the link up but tomorrow I will post some pics of the motor I'm just about to drop it in the car for mockup. I'd love to see some pics of 409's in vettes if any one has any.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,415
Likes: 154
Tom,
I know a few guys who have devoted the last 30 years of their lives researching the '63 Z-11 cars. They tell me that 49 are known now and "possibly" all 50. the VINs are the hardest things to confirm. None of them has written a magazine article, a book (yet) or posted on an internet site with the information they have gathered. People need to realize that not everything that is known to some has been published or proclaimed on the net.
Anyone can become an "expert" on ANY subject in ten minutes on the internet today - but they only learn what has been published by others. Those who really do the research and find the truth about things sometimes just do it for their own interest and share it with like minded historians, never calling attention to themselves. Sharing is something on their to-do list, but not until the research is completed.
Verne
I know a few guys who have devoted the last 30 years of their lives researching the '63 Z-11 cars. They tell me that 49 are known now and "possibly" all 50. the VINs are the hardest things to confirm. None of them has written a magazine article, a book (yet) or posted on an internet site with the information they have gathered. People need to realize that not everything that is known to some has been published or proclaimed on the net.
Anyone can become an "expert" on ANY subject in ten minutes on the internet today - but they only learn what has been published by others. Those who really do the research and find the truth about things sometimes just do it for their own interest and share it with like minded historians, never calling attention to themselves. Sharing is something on their to-do list, but not until the research is completed.
Verne
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,662
Likes: 2,344
From: Lake Minnetonka, Mn
2018 C1 of Year Finalist
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 155
Likes: 1
From: Meridianville AL
They are PML valve covers and I completely agree I had just bought offy valve covers and when I came across them I just had to have them. They liked my motor so much they put it up on their web site. Pretty cool.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,682
Likes: 3,678
From: Central Arkansas
Now that was a dyed-in-the-wool Ford guy pretending to be a Corvette guy. Not knocking the 292/312 motors which were OK for what they were at the time, putting one in a Corvette (even a supercharged one) was definately out of the ordinary.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,415
Likes: 154
back in the 50s there were a lot of late model fords running OHV caddy and olds engines. i had fun blowing them off with my 55 chevy with a 56 corvette engine
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,682
Likes: 3,678
From: Central Arkansas
I can give you the answer. If you read Ludvigsen's book on the Corvette, he indicated that Duntov was never a fan of the "W" engine in the Corvette. The C2 was already a heavy car and the handling dynamics weren't too great with the SB motor let alone the BB. I suspect that the horsepower wars contributed to the introduction of the BB--not anything that Duntov wanted. What you saw in the GS is probably what Zora always wanted, assuming he could have homologated it.
The Cobras did all there winning with a light SB engine and never won an international event with a 427. As a practical matter, they never sponsored a Factory 427--period. Unlike its predictable 289 brethren, the 427 Cobra was a pig to drive.
The Cobras did all there winning with a light SB engine and never won an international event with a 427. As a practical matter, they never sponsored a Factory 427--period. Unlike its predictable 289 brethren, the 427 Cobra was a pig to drive.
By the time the real 427 chassis was engineered with 4 inch main rails and a full coil spring independent suspension, technology and advancing aerodynamic demands had made the Cobra an inefficient tool for racing. All the efforts were being concentrated on the GT40 and Daytona Cobra and high speed European and American courses as Ford concentrated on beating Ferrari at Lemans. The 427 cars had well balanced handling, powerfull braking and wer powerfull enough under any circumstances - they were just not aerodynamic enough. So yes, all the Cobra racing glory was earned by the 289 cars and the Daytona.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,897
Likes: 1,926
From: Washington Michigan
.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 14,632
Likes: 4,683
From: Mustang OK
2026 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2025 c1 of the Year - Modified Winner
2024 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2015 C1 of the Year Finalist
Just in case anyone is interested, a .040 over SB400 makes 409 (408.74 rounded up)-----------------------------AND IS A WHOLE LOT CHEAPER TO BUILD!!! NO, it's not a W-motor, but it is a legitimate 409 cubic inches, and properly built, will make a W-motor killer in an early Vette, PLUS, it's a 100% bolt-in fit.
1st Gear
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Duntov was always opposed to the use of the "W" engine in the Corvette, according to Ludvigsen's book the "Star Spangled Sports Car" The reason for that is probably two fold. First, it was basically a engine whose origins were meant for trucks. It was not a purposive performance engine (by design), having morphed from the 348 cid engine that was offered in passenger cars in '58.
Having been a product of European thinking (mostly Belgium via Russia), car engine displacement was dictated by government fiat and not by demand in the marketplace. Most European countries--post war--limited displacement to three liters (180 cid) because of limited oil resources which made petrol extremely expensive. That might account for "small displacement" thinking, early on, and sports cars, by nature, are weight averse and big bore sports cars were not the norm back then until Shelby arrived on the scene.
Ferrari, in the day, set the standard and most of their world beaters like the 250 GTO ruled the track with only 180 cubic inches. So, there is some historical precedence for wanting to stay with relatively small bore engines, although the 327 would be considered, by European standards, to be a large motor. To Duntov, it made more sense to extract more and more power out the SB (which he did in great fashion), keeping its weight in check for better handling, than to submit to a much heavier engine.
In the end, I think the power curve of history was against Corvette staying with the Turbo-Fire engines. The 60s, if anything, was about more power and the Turbo-Jet engines were part of that evolution. How Duntov felt about that, I do not know. I think the pinnacle of engine design for the Corvette were the Grand Sport motors with the 58 mm DCOE Webers on a cross ram. Exquisite looking and every bit as powerful as a BB.
Having been a product of European thinking (mostly Belgium via Russia), car engine displacement was dictated by government fiat and not by demand in the marketplace. Most European countries--post war--limited displacement to three liters (180 cid) because of limited oil resources which made petrol extremely expensive. That might account for "small displacement" thinking, early on, and sports cars, by nature, are weight averse and big bore sports cars were not the norm back then until Shelby arrived on the scene.
Ferrari, in the day, set the standard and most of their world beaters like the 250 GTO ruled the track with only 180 cubic inches. So, there is some historical precedence for wanting to stay with relatively small bore engines, although the 327 would be considered, by European standards, to be a large motor. To Duntov, it made more sense to extract more and more power out the SB (which he did in great fashion), keeping its weight in check for better handling, than to submit to a much heavier engine.
In the end, I think the power curve of history was against Corvette staying with the Turbo-Fire engines. The 60s, if anything, was about more power and the Turbo-Jet engines were part of that evolution. How Duntov felt about that, I do not know. I think the pinnacle of engine design for the Corvette were the Grand Sport motors with the 58 mm DCOE Webers on a cross ram. Exquisite looking and every bit as powerful as a BB.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 17,571
Likes: 3,460
From: Fresno California
I used to work with a guy who had a '62 Chevy pickup with a 409 transplanted into it. He kept a glove compartment full of spare pushrods. Neat as they were, they were heavy truck-based engines. Great for an Impala, not so great for a Corvette. The GM corporate rule in '64 was no intermediate model could have over 330 cubic inches. That's why the first Olds 442 had a 330 inch motor. And the Pontiac Lemans and Tempest had a 326. And the Buick had a 215 V8. DeLorean got around the ban by offering a 389 as and option, not a model line. The GTO was Option 382, and cost about $275. Less than half the price of optional air conditioning. I agree, great thread, one I've never seen as a newbie.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,982
Likes: 6,209
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.