4 speed vs Automatic
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,610
Likes: 11
From: Tampa, FL & Harleysville, PA
I agree Jim with the autos being more consistent but agree with Tom, they are not quicker. I also was brought up driving a 4 speed. Yes, the drag racer with the most money using auto against auto will win, but that’s not always the case with 4 speeds.... sometimes the better driver wins. What’s competitive about automatics, you don't have to launch, or have the fear of missing a gear and possibly over revving your engine. Tom nailed it right on.... ha ha ha..... Couldn’t have said it better myself...... way to tell it Tom like it really is... You just need to be from the old school to totally understand it....
rustylugnuts
rustylugnuts
Last edited by rustylugnuts; Jun 19, 2010 at 10:36 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
4 speed Vettes were the rule before the BB`s came upon the scene in 1969 with a T400 attached to a L89 435hp 427 ci SHP engine. I am a racer and the autos are definitely quicker than any standard 4,5,or whatever transmission. So much so there had to be a special class strictly for the autos as the 4 speeds couldn`t quite make it when the autos came out. The National records with autos is about 2-3 tents faster than the sticks.... And a Lenco is actually made from C4 Ford parts wrapped in special housings....Shift and clutch all you want, I`ll be waiting at the top end for you....
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,610
Likes: 11
From: Tampa, FL & Harleysville, PA
4 speed Vettes were the rule before the BB`s came upon the scene in 1969 with a T400 attached to a L89 435hp 427 ci SHP engine. I am a racer and the autos are definitely quicker than any standard 4,5,or whatever transmission. So much so there had to be a special class strictly for the autos as the 4 speeds couldn`t quite make it when the autos came out. The National records with autos is about 2-3 tents faster than the sticks.... And a Lenco is actually made from C4 Ford parts wrapped in special housings....Shift and clutch all you want, I`ll be waiting at the top end for you....
http://100megsfree4.com/corvette/1960/vet69.htm
"Historical notes" on automatic transmission option times...
Wow! My little 67 327 with a off road Z-28 Crane Cam SSH-310NC ran a 12.01 @108.6 mph..... I could be standing outside my Corvette at the traps eating a hot dog and drinking a coke before that BB auto comes crawling by...... Peace
rustylugnuts
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 29
From: Towaco NJ
Sorry guys, I am on the stick shift team. Wally, I am in agreement with you almost 100 % of the time. But, this time we differ. I run a group of solid axle, Modified Production, 1969 rules, series here in North Jersey called the North Jersey Outlaws (NJO) Our rules say only manual transmissions. Me, and the better guys will run within Hundreds of a second on every run all day long (assuming the temperature does not change too much).
We rent the track several times a year and will do as much as 9-10 runs that day. We also do some public events that have brackets. Our series is heads up only.
I think the auto's came in to favor back in the late 60s and 70s was because the tire technology was way behind the engines of the day. There was no way to hook up a stick to launch as fast as an auto car, too much tire spin.
With today's bracket racing, ET does not matter. With all the electronics, racing has been reduced to a large version of a video game, little driver skill needed. What a shame.
We rent the track several times a year and will do as much as 9-10 runs that day. We also do some public events that have brackets. Our series is heads up only.
I think the auto's came in to favor back in the late 60s and 70s was because the tire technology was way behind the engines of the day. There was no way to hook up a stick to launch as fast as an auto car, too much tire spin.
With today's bracket racing, ET does not matter. With all the electronics, racing has been reduced to a large version of a video game, little driver skill needed. What a shame.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,662
Likes: 2,344
From: Lake Minnetonka, Mn
2018 C1 of Year Finalist
Personally (and I'm old enough to remember when the Corvette was brand new in 53), I think the Corvette has become luxury status symbol for the snooty folks who need a "look at me" car for their image. Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know that the later cars have all the whistles and bells, power, braking, steering, handling, etc, etc, etc features that could not even be imagined on the older cars. They also have all the convenience items required by the yuppies, blond beauties and wannabes. It's my perception that MOST (pay attention, I said MOST, NOT all) of these owners are NOT, repeat, NOT performance car drivers! Yes, I said performance car. The image of the Corvette has (for the most part) been a performance car (even the early 283/1x4bl carb/PG Vettes were a moderate perf car), and it was for the performance minded driver. Not so much any more.
I'm a performance driver (and ocassional crusing driver) and I want the maximum control possible from a car. You GET that control with a 4sp (or a 5sp or a 6sp), you do not get that total control with an auto tranny. People, including myself, WILL PAY the extra $$$$ for a 4sp car over an identical auto tranny car. Some, not all, auto trannys WILL SHIFT, NO MATTER WHERE THE GEAR SELECTOR IS POSITIONED, and NOT where you want it. And last, the enjoyment of driving a 4sp car (I use 4sp as generic for 3sp, 4sp, 5sp, 6sp) is lost with an auto tranny car.
And, then there are those folks who state that an auto tranny shifts faster than a 4sp. BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take a ride with Tom Parsons, and I'll show you how fast a properly adjusted 4sp can be shifted! Keep in mind that I grew up in the days of the power shifted muscle car era. Sometimes it just makes me want to puke when I see how some people shift their 4sp cars.
ABSOLUTELY, I'll pay more for a 4sp car, plus, a Vette with an auto tranny is just as wrong as 2 boys having sex!
Tom Parsons
I'm a performance driver (and ocassional crusing driver) and I want the maximum control possible from a car. You GET that control with a 4sp (or a 5sp or a 6sp), you do not get that total control with an auto tranny. People, including myself, WILL PAY the extra $$$$ for a 4sp car over an identical auto tranny car. Some, not all, auto trannys WILL SHIFT, NO MATTER WHERE THE GEAR SELECTOR IS POSITIONED, and NOT where you want it. And last, the enjoyment of driving a 4sp car (I use 4sp as generic for 3sp, 4sp, 5sp, 6sp) is lost with an auto tranny car.
And, then there are those folks who state that an auto tranny shifts faster than a 4sp. BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take a ride with Tom Parsons, and I'll show you how fast a properly adjusted 4sp can be shifted! Keep in mind that I grew up in the days of the power shifted muscle car era. Sometimes it just makes me want to puke when I see how some people shift their 4sp cars.
ABSOLUTELY, I'll pay more for a 4sp car, plus, a Vette with an auto tranny is just as wrong as 2 boys having sex!
Tom Parsons
You must abstain from "sugar coating" all your responses.....
"
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 141
Likes: 3
From: Bloomington IN
So is 3000 a good estimate for a conversion to a 4sp? I've had my auto for 27 years, but that's all i could afford when i purchased it along with putting it back together expenses. I miss having gears.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
Sorry Men, Autos rule..that is if you want to win
There is nothing wrong with a 4 speed car or 4 speed Vette, its that they are not the world beaters of racing. The autos rule and the above quoted 12-0 second 4 speed clutch Chevy could be used in a pinch to start a 'Hemi or a L88. You better eat that hot dog inside before a BB gets to it....
use this link and take a look, I have both the Hemi and LS7 with automatics...because 'Winning isn`t everything, its the only thing'
http://www.competitionplus.com/2005_02_03/holton.html
good reading, no offense either
use this link and take a look, I have both the Hemi and LS7 with automatics...because 'Winning isn`t everything, its the only thing'
http://www.competitionplus.com/2005_02_03/holton.html
good reading, no offense either
Pro
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 568
Likes: 2
From: New Knoxville Ohio
Rock0324, Only an opinion to your question. I would guess that many to most of the automatic mid years, would not be flogged as much as the standard shift cars. As far as value, I have a 4sp. '62. My Dad had a '66 conv. with hdtp, auto and air. I loved it as well. I wish it had power windows, power steering also. It was built for a different purpose and it fit me fine. So if I was looking for a cream puff with creature comforts, I would assume there are more cream puff auto. cars than cream puff standard shift cars.
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Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
The FIRST criteria for the best car to buy should be the BODY! Don't worry about the mechanical stuff that is worn or torn up, bent, broken, non-original stuff. All that can be satisfactorily repaired or replaced.
Bodies that have had severe damage are not easily repaired without lingering problems and appearance issues.
Bodies that have had severe damage are not easily repaired without lingering problems and appearance issues.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,073
Likes: 3
From: New Jersey. The deer ate my Garden State.
I have a power glide in my '66 coupe. If it wasn't original to the car, then I would of pulled it out many years ago and replaced it with a 4 speed. I do pretend to shift it manually.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 21
From: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
oh yeah
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 131
Unless its a 427 / 396 car a manual would be mandatory. Lower hp cars..... I wouldn't care. Matter of fact I would prefer an automatic C-1 and I'm on the trail for one. The car would be notably in better condition, probably female owned, and have less modifications. They drive better in city traffic and when I drive an old vette its not a drag race. There really isn't room for someone 6'5" to constantly play with the clutch and even if there was it wouldn't be enjoyable. I would be closer to a metric 200 install vs the 5 speed manual.
A new vette would have to be a convertible with automatic... no other choice would be considered.
A new vette would have to be a convertible with automatic... no other choice would be considered.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Rochester ny
No question manual tranny's are more expensive. Just go through the ebay listings and look at the price and not the details. Anytime you see a car priced $5-10k less than the others, look at the description. Its always turns out to be an automatic. Happens to me all the time.
Mike
Mike
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,921
Likes: 53
From: Philadelphia Pa
Here's a thought. I would think that since 3 speeds and automatics aren't in the "sexy" 4 speed category, there would be less tendency to "phony" up an 3 speed/automatic car. In other words, would a 3 speed/automatic car be more likely to have an original drive train, as opposed to a 4 speed?
Racer
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 271
Likes: 12
My 63 coupe is a 4 spd, my 68 roadster is a TH400 automatic.
Chose 'em both and love 'em both for different reasons.
I know it is just my own personal thing, but to me the C2 is a car I want to drive like a performance car, mash the gas, and row the gears. I would not have considered an auto tranny when I shopped my 63.
However, on a nice day, I like to drop the top for a leisurely cruise in the C3 roadster without having to bother with shifting. I can drink a cup of coffee, fiddle with the radio, put my elbow up on the door and enjoy it. Not to say the car doesn't get on it when I want it to. But it offers some things the 63 doesn't and vice versa.
I think there are buyers for both.
Chose 'em both and love 'em both for different reasons.
I know it is just my own personal thing, but to me the C2 is a car I want to drive like a performance car, mash the gas, and row the gears. I would not have considered an auto tranny when I shopped my 63.
However, on a nice day, I like to drop the top for a leisurely cruise in the C3 roadster without having to bother with shifting. I can drink a cup of coffee, fiddle with the radio, put my elbow up on the door and enjoy it. Not to say the car doesn't get on it when I want it to. But it offers some things the 63 doesn't and vice versa.
I think there are buyers for both.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,190
Likes: 4,178
From: Kannapolis NC
It's really pretty simple, the 4 speeds sell for more because there are more buyers and you can generally ask more. Whether you like them or not, or which one is faster in the quarter mile has no bearing on the answer to the question. Four speed cars in the C2 generation sell for more than automatics if all else is equal. And sometimes even if it isn't.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 196
From: Wilton Ca.
Every time someone asks me about my car one of the very first things they ALWAYS ask "is it a 4speed"? When I say yes, it is, they always seem to say "yeah, all right! I LOVE my Muncie and wouldn't even THINK of looking at any corvette or muscle era car without one. 
Racer
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 280
Likes: 10
From: Studio City, CA Lake Havasu, AZ Mendocino, CA
over the years i've owned 15 corvettes (ALL 4-SPEEDS). presently a 62 fulie, 63 (SWC), 3- 66 427/425's and a 67 435. the thought of having an automatic makes me fell like i'm wearing a dress and my old lady is making me leave the party because i'm having fun.... over the years, i've turned down at least 5 nice Corvette air cars because they were automatics.
of the 7 Corvettes, 2 Z-28's, 2- 66 big block(360 & 375) SS Chevelles, 2- El Camino's, 2- SS 396/375 SS Novas, 63 421 Catalina, 64 GTO, 66 2+2 421 Pontaic convertible that i currently own, the only automatics in my collection are my 66 impala (BIG block/full option) turbo 400 w/ a Gear Vendors overdrive and a 38 chevy business coupe street rod. i wish those 2 were sticks, but they're too nice to change. the ONLY muscle car with an automatic is the Hurst Olds.
i know that an automatic shifts faster, but this is the street, not the U.S. Nationals at Raceway park in Indianapolis. i'll trade a 1/10th or 2 for the buzz of powershifting my "MUSCLE" cars.... just my humble opinion...
DON'T BE A *****.....
of the 7 Corvettes, 2 Z-28's, 2- 66 big block(360 & 375) SS Chevelles, 2- El Camino's, 2- SS 396/375 SS Novas, 63 421 Catalina, 64 GTO, 66 2+2 421 Pontaic convertible that i currently own, the only automatics in my collection are my 66 impala (BIG block/full option) turbo 400 w/ a Gear Vendors overdrive and a 38 chevy business coupe street rod. i wish those 2 were sticks, but they're too nice to change. the ONLY muscle car with an automatic is the Hurst Olds.
i know that an automatic shifts faster, but this is the street, not the U.S. Nationals at Raceway park in Indianapolis. i'll trade a 1/10th or 2 for the buzz of powershifting my "MUSCLE" cars.... just my humble opinion...
DON'T BE A *****.....