65 4speed shift question
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
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From: Bailey, NC
65 4speed shift question
Have adjusted stock shifter, seems ok. With linkage disconnected, trans shift ams are very easy to move in & out of gear as if there is no noticeable neutral detention, more on 3-4. So, this appears to be internal. Can this be corrected by removing side plate or does trans need to be removed? Any & all help greatly appreciated! Thanks, Rod
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Joined: May 2015
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From: Bailey, NC
Thanks, Mike. It has been over 40 years since I have been inside of a Muncie, & I feel like a kid again, hope some memory will return. I guess you are saying the issues Are inside the plate, so I need to drain,remove the plate to see what's going on. How much repair is possible at that time. Can I replace shift pads, arms, etc.? Many thanks, Rod
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From: Greenville, Indiana
Thanks, Mike. It has been over 40 years since I have been inside of a Muncie, & I feel like a kid again, hope some memory will return. I guess you are saying the issues Are inside the plate, so I need to drain,remove the plate to see what's going on. How much repair is possible at that time. Can I replace shift pads, arms, etc.? Many thanks, Rod
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Army
It does sound like something with the rooster tails or pin held by the side cover....its very easy to take the cover off and examine things closely... You can buy any part you need for the shifter ***'y. The piece in the picture is not only a new side cover -- the rooster tails, spring, seals, shifter shafts and shifter forks are also new....
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; Sep 27, 2015 at 06:13 PM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
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From: Bailey, NC
Great response
It does sound like something with the rooster tails or pin held by the side cover....its very easy to take the cover off and examine things closely... You can buy any part you need for the shifter ***'y. The piece in the picture is not only a new side cover -- the rooster tails, spring, seals, shifter shafts and shifter forks are also new....
"Memory & muscles are alike, you don't realize how much of them you've lost , until you try to use them". Rod. :yes-nod
Last edited by RodRocket; Sep 29, 2015 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Redundant phrase
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Army
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Frankie was nice enough to post a pic of his cover, in looking at his pics you might notice some differences.
His has Oilite bronze bushings; yours won't. The wall thickness of the "shift tower bore" isn't sufficient to sleeve it with bronze in a factory cover.
You may very well notice that the "shift arms" (the steel dog leg pieces that extend through the side cover and attach to your linkage) don't fit snug in their bores anymore (hardened steel vs raw cast aluminum). While you can't replace bushings like he can, you can use the "shift arms" you see in his picture, which are .750" in dia. GM in their infinite wisdom used a shaft that is slightly less than .750" Ergo, use the aftermarket levers and a .751 reamer; this will restore a mildly out of round bore, nice tight shifts and still allow the use of the factory dimension seal (chicago rawhide P/N 7410).
The same goes for the "pin" used to retain the shift detents (or rooster combs/rooster tails), and their e-clip. The one he has is slightly oversized in diameter to allow you to clean up the hole and retain a tight fit. It also has a head on it, like the most current GM designs had (so if you had a very early cover, the OE pin won't have a flat head and be prone to leak and wobble around).
The rooster combs pictured are heat treated and straightened as well. And the blue stripe spring is a 2LB pull unit.
All that stuff I rattled off is American made, readily available and can be used to repair an OE sidecover with very little effort, or noticeability (other than the head on the pin and the lever arms don't have studs, they're drilled for 5/16th fine thread grade-8 bolts).
His has Oilite bronze bushings; yours won't. The wall thickness of the "shift tower bore" isn't sufficient to sleeve it with bronze in a factory cover.
You may very well notice that the "shift arms" (the steel dog leg pieces that extend through the side cover and attach to your linkage) don't fit snug in their bores anymore (hardened steel vs raw cast aluminum). While you can't replace bushings like he can, you can use the "shift arms" you see in his picture, which are .750" in dia. GM in their infinite wisdom used a shaft that is slightly less than .750" Ergo, use the aftermarket levers and a .751 reamer; this will restore a mildly out of round bore, nice tight shifts and still allow the use of the factory dimension seal (chicago rawhide P/N 7410).
The same goes for the "pin" used to retain the shift detents (or rooster combs/rooster tails), and their e-clip. The one he has is slightly oversized in diameter to allow you to clean up the hole and retain a tight fit. It also has a head on it, like the most current GM designs had (so if you had a very early cover, the OE pin won't have a flat head and be prone to leak and wobble around).
The rooster combs pictured are heat treated and straightened as well. And the blue stripe spring is a 2LB pull unit.
All that stuff I rattled off is American made, readily available and can be used to repair an OE sidecover with very little effort, or noticeability (other than the head on the pin and the lever arms don't have studs, they're drilled for 5/16th fine thread grade-8 bolts).
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
Likes: 6
From: Bailey, NC
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
Likes: 6
From: Bailey, NC
Great info
Frankie was nice enough to post a pic of his cover, in looking at his pics you might notice some differences.
His has Oilite bronze bushings; yours won't. The wall thickness of the "shift tower bore" isn't sufficient to sleeve it with bronze in a factory cover.
You may very well notice that the "shift arms" (the steel dog leg pieces that extend through the side cover and attach to your linkage) don't fit snug in their bores anymore (hardened steel vs raw cast aluminum). While you can't replace bushings like he can, you can use the "shift arms" you see in his picture, which are .750" in dia. GM in their infinite wisdom used a shaft that is slightly less than .750" Ergo, use the aftermarket levers and a .751 reamer; this will restore a mildly out of round bore, nice tight shifts and still allow the use of the factory dimension seal (chicago rawhide P/N 7410
The same goes for the "pin" used to retain the shift detents (or rooster combs/rooster tails), and their e-clip. The one he has is slightly oversized in diameter to allow you to clean up the hole and retain a tight fit. It also has a head on it, like the most current GM designs had (so if you had a very early cover, the OE pin won't have a flat head and be prone to leak and wobble around).
The rooster combs pictured are heat treated and straightened as well. And the blue stripe spring is a 2LB pull unit.
All that stuff I rattled off is American made, readily available and can be used to repair an OE sidecover with very little effort, or noticeability (other than the head on the pin and the lever arms don't have studs, they're drilled for 5/16th fine thread grade-8 bolts).
His has Oilite bronze bushings; yours won't. The wall thickness of the "shift tower bore" isn't sufficient to sleeve it with bronze in a factory cover.
You may very well notice that the "shift arms" (the steel dog leg pieces that extend through the side cover and attach to your linkage) don't fit snug in their bores anymore (hardened steel vs raw cast aluminum). While you can't replace bushings like he can, you can use the "shift arms" you see in his picture, which are .750" in dia. GM in their infinite wisdom used a shaft that is slightly less than .750" Ergo, use the aftermarket levers and a .751 reamer; this will restore a mildly out of round bore, nice tight shifts and still allow the use of the factory dimension seal (chicago rawhide P/N 7410
The same goes for the "pin" used to retain the shift detents (or rooster combs/rooster tails), and their e-clip. The one he has is slightly oversized in diameter to allow you to clean up the hole and retain a tight fit. It also has a head on it, like the most current GM designs had (so if you had a very early cover, the OE pin won't have a flat head and be prone to leak and wobble around).
The rooster combs pictured are heat treated and straightened as well. And the blue stripe spring is a 2LB pull unit.
All that stuff I rattled off is American made, readily available and can be used to repair an OE sidecover with very little effort, or noticeability (other than the head on the pin and the lever arms don't have studs, they're drilled for 5/16th fine thread grade-8 bolts).
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,754
From: Charlotte NC
RodRocket,
I would like to add this if I may.
I also feel that you have internal worn parts ( from what you described).....BUT.....what i am about to mention is also something to consider....NOT 'saying' that this will fix your problem...but...it can possibly be a contributing factor when you are all completed.
I have repaired SO MANY shifters due to wear. AND where they 'wear' is at the end of the chrome shifter handle. The end of the shifter handle fits into the three plates. And I have had so many..that when I get the end of the shifter engaged into the plate. I can hold on the plate and have excessive movement in the handle. So I remove the handle....weld and grind it and get it to fit more snug. SO that when going shifting...the excessive amount of play does not cause for a problem when tryign to move internal components. I have also had to weld and grind on brand NEW shifters....due whoever ground on it at the manufacturing plant...took off too much material...and the end of the shifter handle did not go into the notch far enough. SO...when I repair these...I have my shim I use for setting the neutral gate....and make sure the length of the shifter handle notch allows for my thin gauge to slide in....so it has a lot of material there for years of good service.
DUB
I would like to add this if I may.
I also feel that you have internal worn parts ( from what you described).....BUT.....what i am about to mention is also something to consider....NOT 'saying' that this will fix your problem...but...it can possibly be a contributing factor when you are all completed.
I have repaired SO MANY shifters due to wear. AND where they 'wear' is at the end of the chrome shifter handle. The end of the shifter handle fits into the three plates. And I have had so many..that when I get the end of the shifter engaged into the plate. I can hold on the plate and have excessive movement in the handle. So I remove the handle....weld and grind it and get it to fit more snug. SO that when going shifting...the excessive amount of play does not cause for a problem when tryign to move internal components. I have also had to weld and grind on brand NEW shifters....due whoever ground on it at the manufacturing plant...took off too much material...and the end of the shifter handle did not go into the notch far enough. SO...when I repair these...I have my shim I use for setting the neutral gate....and make sure the length of the shifter handle notch allows for my thin gauge to slide in....so it has a lot of material there for years of good service.
DUB
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
Likes: 6
From: Bailey, NC
RodRocket,
I would like to add this if I may.
I also feel that you have internal worn parts ( from what you described).....BUT.....what i am about to mention is also something to consider....NOT 'saying' that this will fix your problem...but...it can possibly be a contributing factor when you are all completed.
I have repaired SO MANY shifters due to wear. AND where they 'wear' is at the end of the chrome shifter handle. The end of the shifter handle fits into the three plates. And I have had so many..that when I get the end of the shifter engaged into the plate. I can hold on the plate and have excessive movement in the handle. So I remove the handle....weld and grind it and get it to fit more snug. SO that when going shifting...the excessive amount of play does not cause for a problem when tryign to move internal components. I have also had to weld and grind on brand NEW shifters....due whoever ground on it at the manufacturing plant...took off too much material...and the end of the shifter handle did not go into the notch far enough. SO...when I repair these...I have my shim I use for setting the neutral gate....and make sure the length of the shifter handle notch allows for my thin gauge to slide in....so it has a lot of material there for years of good service.
DUB
I would like to add this if I may.
I also feel that you have internal worn parts ( from what you described).....BUT.....what i am about to mention is also something to consider....NOT 'saying' that this will fix your problem...but...it can possibly be a contributing factor when you are all completed.
I have repaired SO MANY shifters due to wear. AND where they 'wear' is at the end of the chrome shifter handle. The end of the shifter handle fits into the three plates. And I have had so many..that when I get the end of the shifter engaged into the plate. I can hold on the plate and have excessive movement in the handle. So I remove the handle....weld and grind it and get it to fit more snug. SO that when going shifting...the excessive amount of play does not cause for a problem when tryign to move internal components. I have also had to weld and grind on brand NEW shifters....due whoever ground on it at the manufacturing plant...took off too much material...and the end of the shifter handle did not go into the notch far enough. SO...when I repair these...I have my shim I use for setting the neutral gate....and make sure the length of the shifter handle notch allows for my thin gauge to slide in....so it has a lot of material there for years of good service.
DUB
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,754
From: Charlotte NC
You almost need to drop the shifter and look at it from the side...so you can see that tang at the bottom of the handle rod...where it fits into the notch of the three plates that move when you change gears.
DUB
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 32
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From: Bailey, NC
The area I am referring to is at the main shifter housing area...under the car. So the top of the shifter will do you no good.
You almost need to drop the shifter and look at it from the side...so you can see that tang at the bottom of the handle rod...where it fits into the notch of the three plates that move when you change gears.
DUB
You almost need to drop the shifter and look at it from the side...so you can see that tang at the bottom of the handle rod...where it fits into the notch of the three plates that move when you change gears.
DUB
or talk to you about rebuilding it. Thanks for update, Rod
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From: Charlotte NC
As I have written before....I prefer the factory shifters my self. I like the revers lock out set-up....and if the shifter is correct...they do not give a problem.
Trying to adjust the shfiter without that thin shim to keep all of the plates correctly aligned is NO FUN....it can be done...but take some time.
AND....as I wrote...SO MUCH of this has to do with internal parts worn and also the end of the shifter handle being sloppy in the notch of the three plates. AND the OBVIOUS wear on any of the linkage ends and weak 'G' clips.
DUB
Trying to adjust the shfiter without that thin shim to keep all of the plates correctly aligned is NO FUN....it can be done...but take some time.
AND....as I wrote...SO MUCH of this has to do with internal parts worn and also the end of the shifter handle being sloppy in the notch of the three plates. AND the OBVIOUS wear on any of the linkage ends and weak 'G' clips.
DUB
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
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From: Greenville, Indiana
Agree with the worn parts. But, with worn parts in a shifter, I've found the gauge/tool isn't really necessary. Just put someone in the driver's seat and have him move the shifter around and tell the underneath man what he's feeling. Adjust accordingly.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
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From: Charlotte NC
That works great if you have a second person. But if you are by yourself....hard to be in two places at once. And I can not get up and down constantly to check. So...i made the gauge.
DUB