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I like both converters....how the car is driven is what makes the choice.
The non lock-up will be the most reliable and trouble free... it's the simplest by design.
I hated lock-ups when they first came out. Brand new Cadillacs had a lockup point that was NOT good for city driving. In and out, in and out..and finally converter chatter when it couldn't make up its mind to lock up or not.
Some of that was driver error ..now most of us have learned to drive where the lock up point isn't. (which oft times is right where you need to drive! )
I know the lock-ups run a little cooler, but I'm not sure it matters. I've never had any issues with transmission heat on non lock-up converters...and I still have three one ton wreckers with turbo 400's and non lock-up converters that pull heavy loads, and have for 20 (+) years. We are talking much higher rpm operation on the converters under loads in Texas heat..an oft times for long non-stop highways hours at a time. I have two turbo 350's with non lock-ups too.
All that being said..I opted for a lock up in my C1 with a 200-4R, and a switch to disable the lock-up if I'm driving at that 45ish mph that makes it want to hunt at lock up speeds.
Part of that decision was that I was using an engine that had a very broad power band with loads of torque from zero to 3500 rpm...and I liked the idea of 1800 rpm at 65-70 mph.
The short pole in that tent is that have realized that I will rarely take the car out and sit on the highway at that speed for long periods of time like I imagined I would....and the lock-up remains disabled the majority of the time.
Art Carr has always preferred non-lock up converters, mainly because they are the simplest and most reliable...especially for a performance transmission. High performance cars need reliability, far more than fuel economy or lower trans temps, hence his recommendation on the matter.
Now..regarding the converter choice for my C1. I will likely change to a non-lock up for my current "higher" horsepower engine build and upgrade to the highest hp rating 200-4R I can get. My needs have changed..and simple reliability is the only criteria now.
Would I use a lock-up again with my first engine and gear combination? Yep... because I planned on spending LOT of time on the highway (like a route 66 tour..or a trek across several states).
Soo..the choice "isn't exactly cut and dried one way or the other"...the intended operation is what makes the difference...imho.
...and as stated in previous threads, my source would be anywhere "but" Bowtie...they do not like these transmissions, yadda, yadda, etc. etc.
Art Carr was the first to realize the 200-4R's potential and correct it's short comings. He is the master...and has built a life long reputation on his ability to build tough ones.
Nice to hear he's come up with a bracket to install them too! Someone should have done it long ago. (..not that there's that much to it, just one less pia for the guys that don't have welding equipment.)
It's only money any way..right? Good luck..Stan
Last edited by Stan's Customs; 10-06-2017 at 07:47 AM.
I went there today and he's pretty adamant about not using a lock up converter. He's convinced you don't need one. I'm not. I didn't get a look at his "bracket" either.
Please do post a photo of the bolt-in rear mount if you end up getting your trans from Art Carr. I have researched this problem in the past, and it looks very difficult to solve with a bolt-in solution for a C2. The only way I can see to accomplish a bolt-in solution is to leave out the rubber mount that GM used.
Leaving out the rubber mount leaves more room for a bolt-in solution, but I think leaving it out is a bad idea. A fully rigid mount might lead to cracking the transmission case when driving the car hard.
At present, my view is that the 2004R has some minor advantages over the 700R4 in terms of gear ratios and drive shaft compatibility, but if the owner insists that the conversion must be 100% bolt-in, the 700R4 is the way to go for a C2. If I could see a good bolt-in solution for the 2004R rear mount, that would tilt the balance toward the 2004R.
Recently, someone on this forum posted a photo of a very clean and simple rear mount for putting a 2004R in a C2. While it did require welding some brackets onto the back side of the rear crossmember, all the work was additive (no cutting of the crossmember) and could easily be removed at a future time will minimal evidence left behind. I think this may be a pretty good solution if the "100% bolt-in criterion can be relaxed just a bit.
I'd like to go with a lock up because we do plan on driving it for extended periods at freeway speeds. I learned to kick the 700R4 back to third around town without even thinking about it which kept the lock up in that converter from rocking in and out. The low truck like first gear of the 700R4 wore me out even with a 3.36 rear end gear like I said previously, though.
Bowtie tells me they've come up with a bolt in rear trans mount for the 2004R now for the 63-67 Corvettes. $99.
I bought my 700R4 from Bowtie 2 years ago and it was trouble free. Rich withheld the beginning of the warranty period for a couple of months after I got it, and started it when I called to tell him the pressure results when setting the TV cable, and I confirmed I actually started driving the car. They did this for me rather than letting the warranty run while it was still sitting on the ground.
A friend of mine has a shop and has installed several 2004R's from Bowtie in street rods and hot rods and has never had an issue. He swears by them.
I've actually known Art Carr since the 1970's when we used to race at Irwindale and OCIR. He has a good reputation as well. He told me he's turning 85 soon. I hope I'm still dabbling at 85.
The difference in price between the two suppliers is huge. $1,650 for the trans at Bowtie and if you purchase the tv cable and other goodies from them they toss in a free rebuilt 1,800 or 2,200 rpm lock up converter which worked well in my last purchase from them. Art Carr gets $2,200 for the trans, almost $600 for a non lock-up converter, then you buy the tv cable, mount, and other misc items. Overhead might play a roll in it. Where Art's business is (Huntington Beach) shop rent is astronomically high. Bowtie is located in the high desert area near Victorville known as Hesperia, where you can rent buildings for a dime a dozen. Bowtie just moved to larger headquarters, but the land costs and rent in Hesperia are 10% of what they are in HB.
10-4 Randy..then it's a no brainer for you, the lock-up is a great option for your driving needs.....and your gona' love the gear ratios of the 200-4R.
I have never mentioned Bowtie's 700-R4''s because it's one they have a lot of experience with (or any builder has for that matter)..and a easier transmission to keep together, especially when using mostly stock parts. It's interesting that they have had such a change of heart. Maybe they have learned something, and have more confidence in the 200-4R's now (..or maybe it's because savvy buyers have learned something, and Bowtie doesn't want to miss out on sales..??)
I would have to find out what they are doing for the upgrades to make an educated choice...and compare that to Art Carr's upgrades. Anyone can claim a number for HP ratings.
Not to beat a dead horse...I'm sure you will make a good analysis and a good choice. My experience with them was enough to make me doubt that they knew anything at all about a 200-4R. I would always be worried that I would tear theirs up if I ran it hard. I've worked too hard and too long on this car to feel like that about "anything"...
Yeah ..I hope I'm still kickin' around at Art Carr's age too. I always said I was born a decade to late....I would like to have been part of the group innovators that changed hot rodding forever.
Stan..
Last edited by Stan's Customs; 10-07-2017 at 09:04 AM.
If you're still on the fence about converters, FWIW, I'd definitely go with a lock up converter. 300-400 less RPM at cruise and the trans fluid will not get hot due to zero slippage. No slippage=no heat. Like Stan, I have not experienced overheating with non-lock-up converters, but if you're doing the changeover, may as well do it 100% and get OD and the lockup. It's the best solution for a car that gets driven. Better fuel economy, too. No downside to a lock-up converter and an OD trans.
if you're still on the fence about converters, fwiw, i'd definitely go with a lock up converter. 300-400 less rpm at cruise and the trans fluid will not get hot due to zero slippage. No slippage=no heat. Like stan, i have not experienced overheating with non-lock-up converters, but if you're doing the changeover, may as well do it 100% and get od and the lockup. It's the best solution for a car that gets driven. Better fuel economy, too. No downside to a lock-up converter and an od trans.
If you're still on the fence about converters, FWIW, I'd definitely go with a lock up converter. 300-400 less RPM at cruise and the trans fluid will not get hot due to zero slippage. No slippage=no heat. Like Stan, I have not experienced overheating with non-lock-up converters, but if you're doing the changeover, may as well do it 100% and get OD and the lockup. It's the best solution for a car that gets driven. Better fuel economy, too. No downside to a lock-up converter and an OD trans.
I agree 100%. I have over 35,000 miles on my '67 since installing the 200 with a lockup converter. And the final touch was installation of the Compushift controller which eliminates the vacuum switch. It is totally programmable in terms of shift points.
I'm still posting but my wife has taken a turn for the worse. She has been approved by UCLA's Dr Busuttil for surgery on a 60mm aneurysm that developed on her portal vein in her liver. It also appears that the cancer and radiation treatments have taken their toll. The good news is she is in good spirits through all this. When we get through this (praying she does) then I can put the trans swap back on the front burner. For you prayer warriors her name is Kathy, hence the license plate...
I'm still posting but my wife has taken a turn for the worse. She has been approved by UCLA's Dr Busuttil for surgery on a 60mm aneurysm that developed on her portal vein in her liver. It also appears that the cancer and radiation treatments have taken their toll. The good news is she is in good spirits through all this. When we get through this (praying she does) then I can put the trans swap back on the front burner. For you prayer warriors her name is Kathy, hence the license plate...
I absolutely will be praying for her (and you ) Randy.
All the best...Stan
10-4 Randy..then it's a no brainer for you, the lock-up is a great option for your driving needs.....and your gona' love the gear ratios of the 200-4R.
I have never mentioned Bowtie's 700-R4''s because it's one they have a lot of experience with (or any builder has for that matter)..and a easier transmission to keep together, especially when using mostly stock parts. It's interesting that they have had such a change of heart. Maybe they have learned something, and have more confidence in the 200-4R's now (..or maybe it's because savvy buyers have learned something, and Bowtie doesn't want to miss out on sales..??)
I would have to find out what they are doing for the upgrades to make an educated choice...and compare that to Art Carr's upgrades. Anyone can claim a number for HP ratings.
Not to beat a dead horse...I'm sure you will make a good analysis and a good choice. My experience with them was enough to make me doubt that they knew anything at all about a 200-4R. I would always be worried that I would tear theirs up if I ran it hard. I've worked too hard and too long on this car to feel like that about "anything"...
Yeah ..I hope I'm still kickin' around at Art Carr's age too. I always said I was born a decade to late....I would like to have been part of the group innovators that changed hot rodding forever.
Stan..
This thread is very familiar to me as I was considering which transmission to replace the stock Powerglide in my '67 coupe earlier this year.
Back in February I spoke with both Art Carr and Rich at Bowtie. I understand Rich is no longer with Bowtie, but my experience with him wasn't encouraging. He was rather arrogant and dismissive of my technical questions about the merits of a 2004R vs. 700R4. He was very negative about the 2004R, saying they just won't hold up, and aren't a bolt-in for the C2 like the 700R4 is. Rich didn’t like it when I questioned his ‘bolt-in’ assertion as the driveshaft would need to be shortened to install a 700R4. No matter what I said, Rich wasn't hearing it. Now Rich is gone and Bowtie is embracing the 2004R = maybe they were losing too much business to Art Carr?
My two conversations with Art Carr were much more pleasant. Art actually returned my calls, vs. me having to call repeatedly to reach someone at Bowtie. Art advised against a lock-up torque converter in the 2004R. He gave good reasons, mainly around reliability and simplicity. “Parts not put in don't break or cause warranty problems” he said. In my circumstance fuel economy wasn't a primary consideration: more flexibility around town and better standing start acceleration were my objectives.
Member RT67 (Bob B.) gave me some great info on his 2004R swap. He had someone make up the needed rear trans mounting bracket. That would be another hurdle - finding someone locally to fabricate the bracket, and do the actual transmission swap.
After much research on this and other forums (there is a lot of info on the Chevelle forum) I came to the conclusion that an Art Carr’s 2004R would be the way to go. This trans has several advantages over the 7004R: better gear ratios (less spread between 1st and 2nd), lighter weight, plus no need to shorten the driveshaft.
My final challenge was living in Canada. You guys in the U.S. of A. enjoy lower prices and more choice in everything automotive. I would have to import the 2004R from Art Carr, have the needed custom rear mount bracket made up, and find a shop to install the transmission and make the needed adjustments and fixes to make it all work together (i.e. adapt dipstick tube, make up new trans cooler and vacuum modulator lines, install & adjust new kickdown linkage). The weak Canadian dollar, shipping, import duties and taxes, brokerage, etc., would add another 50% to the cost of the transmission alone. Finding a shop locally that would do the swap turned out to be difficult as well. Most wouldn’t touch it, especially a job involving a trans brought in from somewhere else. I soon found out that most transmission shops make their bread and butter replacing Honda and minivan transmissions. There would be too many things that could go wrong for a shop to commit the space and time to take on my Corvette project. Truth is, most mechanics these days are younger and have never worked on a C2, little own done a transmission swap in one. I was getting discouraged, and the project was looking to cost a lot more than I had expected.
Then, I had a brainwave! If my primary goals were an extra gear for around town flexibility, and better acceleration, then why not use a TH350 instead? The TH350 was dubbed the “three speed Powerglide” during its development (source: Wikipedia) and was developed by Buick and Chevrolet as the direct replacement for the Powerglide in 1969. TH350’s are known for their reliability, especially the non-lockup pre-1981 versions. While not being as strong as the venerable TH400, it can easily be built to handle high torque and is a popular choice for drag racing with intermediate sized cars. It is a fairly direct bolt-in for a ’65 to ‘67 C2's ('63 and '64 require more mods, esp. to the shifter). This means no custom rear trans mount bracket is needed. It also has the advantage of having the same control system as the Powerglide – so no finicky TV cable to go out of adjustment. It lacks overdrive, of course, but that isn’t a problem for me as my ’67 has a 3.08 rear. Cruising in Drive with the Powerglide at 70mph pulls about 2,700rpm, which is fine. If I want to pass, the power is there. With its 2.52 low, 1.52 intermediate, and 1:1 high, the TH350 has similar gearing to the 200R4.
So, I found a suitable short-tailshaft TH350 core on Craiglist for $150, and had it rebuilt at a shop that’s been in business for 35 years. Any experienced shop can rebuild a TH350 as these were the bread and butter GM automatic from 1969 to 1984 when it was superseded by the 7004R. I had the trans disassembled, the case glass beaded, and the unit rebuilt using HD parts and frictions, with a TransGo Stage 2 shift kit. I went with a 2500 stall torque converter to improve standing starts when I want to get on the pedal… The shop was able to install the trans without disturbing the engine. They re-used the Powerglide dipstick tube for a stock look. The only thing they had to temporarily remove was the left side head pipe in order to get the trans into position. What a difference! The swap transformed the car from a rather leisurely tourer to a barn-stormer, but only when I get on it! Highway cruise is as easy as before. Plus, I now have a 2nd gear for flexibility around town and on hills, with tremendously improved acceleration potential. Driving the car in stop and go traffic is better without the Powerglide “too low or too high” geared feeling.
The only challenge I had was getting the stock Powerglide shifter adapted for use with the TH350. Shiftworks sells a kit to allow the stock shifter to be used with a 3 or 4 speed automatic. The kit does work, but the shift pattern is too short - only half the stock lever throw. Because the shift pattern is changed, the neutral safety switch didn’t work as it should – the car could be started in Drive. My troubles with this kit are documented elsewhere on this forum. After some head scratching, a friend and I were able to modify the kit to restore the shift pattern to where it should be. By doing so the car can now be started only in Park or Neutral, as it should.
Going with a TH350 gave me 100% of what I wanted, at less than half the cost of going with a 200R4. If overdrive is a priority for you, then the 200R4 is the way to go. I though Randy G. and others on this forum might like to hear about my experience in considering options for replacing the Powerglide in their C2.
I've replaced the 2 speed autos in GM A-body cars that had the 1.76 lo and 1.00 hi ratios with 2.78-3.23 rear gears with plain-jane TH350's, and the difference is amazing. It feels like the car gained 100 HP driving in town. Overdrives are the ticket if you're running a 3.36 or numerically lower rear gear, but the ease and affordability of a TH350 swap makes it a real upgrade over a 'glide or a super-turbine 300 (Pontiac). Also praying for Randy's wife Kathy and wishing the best.
This thread is very familiar to me as I was considering which transmission to replace the stock Powerglide in my '67 coupe earlier this year.
Back in February I spoke with both Art Carr and Rich at Bowtie. I understand Rich is no longer with Bowtie, but my experience with him wasn't encouraging. He was rather arrogant and dismissive of my technical questions about the merits of a 2004R vs. 700R4. He was very negative about the 2004R, saying they just won't hold up, and aren't a bolt-in for the C2 like the 700R4 is. Rich didn’t like it when I questioned his ‘bolt-in’ assertion as the driveshaft would need to be shortened to install a 700R4. No matter what I said, Rich wasn't hearing it. Now Rich is gone and Bowtie is embracing the 2004R = maybe they were losing too much business to Art Carr?
My two conversations with Art Carr were much more pleasant. Art actually returned my calls, vs. me having to call repeatedly to reach someone at Bowtie. Art advised against a lock-up torque converter in the 2004R. He gave good reasons, mainly around reliability and simplicity. “Parts not put in don't break or cause warranty problems” he said. In my circumstance fuel economy wasn't a primary consideration: more flexibility around town and better standing start acceleration were my objectives.
Member RT67 (Bob B.) gave me some great info on his 2004R swap. He had someone make up the needed rear trans mounting bracket. That would be another hurdle - finding someone locally to fabricate the bracket, and do the actual transmission swap.
After much research on this and other forums (there is a lot of info on the Chevelle forum) I came to the conclusion that an Art Carr’s 2004R would be the way to go. This trans has several advantages over the 7004R: better gear ratios (less spread between 1st and 2nd), lighter weight, plus no need to shorten the driveshaft.
My final challenge was living in Canada. You guys in the U.S. of A. enjoy lower prices and more choice in everything automotive. I would have to import the 2004R from Art Carr, have the needed custom rear mount bracket made up, and find a shop to install the transmission and make the needed adjustments and fixes to make it all work together (i.e. adapt dipstick tube, make up new trans cooler and vacuum modulator lines, install & adjust new kickdown linkage). The weak Canadian dollar, shipping, import duties and taxes, brokerage, etc., would add another 50% to the cost of the transmission alone. Finding a shop locally that would do the swap turned out to be difficult as well. Most wouldn’t touch it, especially a job involving a trans brought in from somewhere else. I soon found out that most transmission shops make their bread and butter replacing Honda and minivan transmissions. There would be too many things that could go wrong for a shop to commit the space and time to take on my Corvette project. Truth is, most mechanics these days are younger and have never worked on a C2, little own done a transmission swap in one. I was getting discouraged, and the project was looking to cost a lot more than I had expected.
Then, I had a brainwave! If my primary goals were an extra gear for around town flexibility, and better acceleration, then why not use a TH350 instead? The TH350 was dubbed the “three speed Powerglide” during its development (source: Wikipedia) and was developed by Buick and Chevrolet as the direct replacement for the Powerglide in 1969. TH350’s are known for their reliability, especially the non-lockup pre-1981 versions. While not being as strong as the venerable TH400, it can easily be built to handle high torque and is a popular choice for drag racing with intermediate sized cars. It is a fairly direct bolt-in for a ’65 to ‘67 C2's ('63 and '64 require more mods, esp. to the shifter). This means no custom rear trans mount bracket is needed. It also has the advantage of having the same control system as the Powerglide – so no finicky TV cable to go out of adjustment. It lacks overdrive, of course, but that isn’t a problem for me as my ’67 has a 3.08 rear. Cruising in Drive with the Powerglide at 70mph pulls about 2,700rpm, which is fine. If I want to pass, the power is there. With its 2.52 low, 1.52 intermediate, and 1:1 high, the TH350 has similar gearing to the 200R4.
So, I found a suitable short-tailshaft TH350 core on Craiglist for $150, and had it rebuilt at a shop that’s been in business for 35 years. Any experienced shop can rebuild a TH350 as these were the bread and butter GM automatic from 1969 to 1984 when it was superseded by the 7004R. I had the trans disassembled, the case glass beaded, and the unit rebuilt using HD parts and frictions, with a TransGo Stage 2 shift kit. I went with a 2500 stall torque converter to improve standing starts when I want to get on the pedal… The shop was able to install the trans without disturbing the engine. They re-used the Powerglide dipstick tube for a stock look. The only thing they had to temporarily remove was the left side head pipe in order to get the trans into position. What a difference! The swap transformed the car from a rather leisurely tourer to a barn-stormer, but only when I get on it! Highway cruise is as easy as before. Plus, I now have a 2nd gear for flexibility around town and on hills, with tremendously improved acceleration potential. Driving the car in stop and go traffic is better without the Powerglide “too low or too high” geared feeling.
The only challenge I had was getting the stock Powerglide shifter adapted for use with the TH350. Shiftworks sells a kit to allow the stock shifter to be used with a 3 or 4 speed automatic. The kit does work, but the shift pattern is too short - only half the stock lever throw. Because the shift pattern is changed, the neutral safety switch didn’t work as it should – the car could be started in Drive. My troubles with this kit are documented elsewhere on this forum. After some head scratching, a friend and I were able to modify the kit to restore the shift pattern to where it should be. By doing so the car can now be started only in Park or Neutral, as it should.
Going with a TH350 gave me 100% of what I wanted, at less than half the cost of going with a 200R4. If overdrive is a priority for you, then the 200R4 is the way to go. I though Randy G. and others on this forum might like to hear about my experience in considering options for replacing the Powerglide in their C2.
Best wishes for your wife's full recovery Randy!
being as you are so close to the USofA, I would have tried to find a shop in Seattle to do the 200R4 swap...
being as you are so close to the USofA, I would have tried to find a shop in Seattle to do the 200R4 swap...
congrats though on your conversion
Bill
Hi Bill,
Yes, I seriously considered having a 2004R shipped from Art Carr to Washington State and having the swap done there.
Although swapping a PG for a 2004R may seem fairly straightforward, it involves a fair bit more than simply bolting in a new transmission - it's hardly a re & re operation. Mods that need to be made include: fabricating a rear trans mount, adapting the shifter mechanism, building new trans cooler & vac modulator lines, new trans speedo gear, installing new kickdown linkage, adapting the trans filler tube, etc.
After some research, I found two shops in NW Washington that had a modicum of expertise in custom work that were willing to take on my project.
But (and there was more than one):
Cost #1: Both shops quoted me from $1,200 to $1,500 US to do the swap. This would be for labor only. Taxes, shop supplies etc. would be extra. And, these were estimates only - things "could come up", and "we don't do these every day". I got the message: I'd be paying a shop to learn to do a swap they may never do again!
Cost #2: At the time, a Canadian Dollar was only worth about .68 cents U.S. So right off the bat I'd be paying a 30% premium.
Hassle #1: I'd have to drive my Corvette across the border to Washington State, with my wife following behind in her car to drive me home. Not a big deal. When the car was finished I'd drive it back across the line to BC. That's when the real hassle would start. I've heard not so good stories from guys who've had work done to their cars in the USA. First question at the border is: "Why did you leave your car in the States for so long?" They would know exactly when the vehicle left Canada, as the US and Canadian border authorities share this info. What am I going to say - that I had a flat tire? The border officer will suspect I had work done to the car. I'd have to declare the value of the work and would be assessed 12% Federal and Provincial sales tax. That would be on top of the 8.5% sales tax I would have already paid in Washington State. Ouch!
Hassle #2: If the shop in Washington State gave me trouble, or their work was defective, what recourse would I have? I wouldn't be so easy to have the car towed back across the line to get it repaired. Doing that would be another huge hassle, involving a brokerage company and expensive tow fees (I don't own a truck and trailer). If I dealt with a local business here in BC then I would have recourse through the BBB, or as last resort through small claims court. And, what if my Corvette got damaged or was stolen while being worked on in the USA? I think I might face a serious hurdle in collecting insurance for that type of loss.
Taken together, the cost and hassle factors turned me against the idea of having the swap done in the USA. This further spurred me to consider the alternative of swapping in a TH350 instead. The total cost for the swap, including parts, labor and taxes, was less than $2,500 Canadian. No border hassles, no US exchange rate, no double taxation. And peace of mind knowing the shop I chose is local and reputable. I'm a happy man and I didn't need to hide the true cost of the project from my wife... In fact she complimented me on being resourceful and finding ways of saving money on the project!
10-06-2017, 07:36 AM
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Stan..
