Tire Failure (Not Vette)
#21
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#23
Melting Slicks
#24
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That ain't over with yet. You and others jumped on the lack of PTC as the cause, just hours afterwards. All I said was, that wasn't the root cause. I also said that PTC was a humongous waste of money on a short line like that.
Cause has yet to be determined and so far, PTC has not been id'd as the cause.. Responsible parities not identified, yet but last I hear, it is pointing to PPM!
You can be sure there will be a full report from this writer when the facts are in.
Cause has yet to be determined and so far, PTC has not been id'd as the cause.. Responsible parities not identified, yet but last I hear, it is pointing to PPM!
You can be sure there will be a full report from this writer when the facts are in.
Last edited by MikeM; 01-10-2018 at 05:29 PM.
#25
Le Mans Master
That tire really looks like she ran over a piece of metal side to side in one spot which caused the failure. Years ago the Concorde airplane had a major accident and crashed in France, it was traced back to a tire failure caused by a piece of metal from another jet that had taken off prior to take off. The tire looked just like that one in your picture.
Last edited by Pilot Dan; 01-10-2018 at 05:32 PM.
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Silverrick (01-10-2018)
#27
Race Director
Thread Starter
My wife doesn't return until tomorrow - maybe Friday. Visiting sick family. I'll check the date when she returns and see what I can see of the damage. They were purchased from a local tire shop that we have frequented because the owners do some sports car racing and are car guys who have good equipment and won't tear up your wheels on tire changes. But they are a small shop. Tires were installed right at 3 years ago this month I believe. Even if they sat in a warehouse awhile I have a hard time it would have been for more than a six months.
Noticed quite a bit of internet traffic about problems with Continental tires but I'm not sure you wouldn't find that for any manufacturer that you Google for problems.
Noticed quite a bit of internet traffic about problems with Continental tires but I'm not sure you wouldn't find that for any manufacturer that you Google for problems.
#28
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Years ago, my girlfriend ran over a cylinder head on I-80 in the Bay Area in her Caravan.....the failure looked just like the OP's. But in her case, the rim was destroyed as well. (steel wheel). Years have not a lot to do with longevity anymore, IMO. A LOT of new rubber is junk compared to the old stuff, in my real-life experience.
#29
Contrary to popular belief ,The date Tire Manufacturers wont cover any replacement after 6 years some are 5 years .Get The Date
#30
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2020 C2 of the Year - Modified Winner
2020 Corvette of the Year (performance mods)
C2 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
2017 C2 of Year Finalist
The first tire is an impact break. The second one was run flat.
JIM
JIM
#31
Race Director
Thread Starter
She's still saying she didn't see anything on the road or feel hitting anything, but probably can never know for sure now.
#33
Race Director
It took about .0000423 seconds for my browser to find it.
The Science of Tire Aging
by Sean Phillips
Updated May 28, 2017
“The auto-oxidation of rubber has been known for a long time, and for a long time, too, it has been known that it plays an important part in spontaneous deterioration or aging, and it has been the object of numerous studies of much interest.” - Journal article from 1931
There's been quite a bit of controversy over the issue of tire aging lately. Many people would like to see manufacturers and dealers either put expiration dates on their tires or otherwise clearly mark the age of each tire for consumers at the time of purchase.
The issue came to a head earlier this year when Maryland debated a bill to require Maryland tire dealers to give consumers a printed statement on the dangers of tire aging whenever they sell a tire that is more than three years past its manufacture date. There are multiple and complex issues at stake here. Should tires have clearer dating? When is a tire too old to be safe? Should a tire be taken out of service because of age even if it has tread life remaining? If a new tire is stored for a long time should it be sold with a warning label or not sold at all?
The Science of Aging
“Tires are primarily degrading from the inside-out, due [to] permeation and reaction of the pressurized oxygen within the tire structure, with rates proportional to temperature.”
Summary of NHTSA Tire Aging Test Development Research
Tire aging is basically an issue of oxidation. As rubber is exposed to oxygen it dries out and becomes stiffer, leading to cracking.
The issue is primarily about how the inner, “wedge” layers of rubber oxidize. The stiffening and cracking of aged rubber can lead to the inner layers of the tire delaminating from the steel belts rather than flexing with the steel as the tire rolls under weight.
There are essentially four major factors that determine how fast a tire will age:
The Inner Liner. The inner liner of any tire is a specialized butyl rubber compound that is designed to be impermeable to air so as to keep the air inside the tire where it belongs. No inner liner is completely impermeable, so some air will always leak slowly through the liner due to osmosis. The quality of the inner liner determines just how much air leaks through, and therefore how fast the inner structure of the tire is exposed to oxygen.
Oxygen Concentration. It's pretty easy to see that oxidation rates will increase when the oxygen concentration is higher. What this means is that a tire that is mounted and filled with compressed air will age much faster than a tire that is simply being stored, because the air pressure is orders of magnitude higher in a filled tire, and more oxygen will permeate through the liner.
Heat. Oxidation of rubber occurs much faster under high heat than low heat. In essence, heat increases both the permeability and reactivity of oxygen, making it both easier for oxygen to get through the inner liner and easier for it to react with the rubber inside the tire.
Usage. When a tire is driven, the pressure and flexing motion circulate the internal oils through the rubber. These oils lubricate the internal rubber and keep it from drying and stiffening. So tires that are used less are often more vulnerable to aging effects.
The History of the Science
In 1989, ADAC, Germany’s consumer advocacy group concluded: “Even tires that are just six years old – though they appear to be brand new – can present a safety risk. Tire experts even say that if they are not used, indeed, tires age more quickly.”
In 1990, vehicle manufacturers including BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, and GM Europe, among others, included in the owner's manual warnings that tires older than six years should only be used in an emergency and replaced as soon as possible.
The British Rubber Manufacturer's Association noted that “BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over 6 years old and that all tyres should be replaced 10 years from the date of their manufacture.”
In 2005, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, and Bridgestone/Firestone added warnings that tires should be inspected at 5 years and replaced after 10.
Michelin and Continental issued similar bulletins in 2006. Hankook did so in 2009.
In 2007, NHTSA's Research Report to Congress on Tire Aging presented clear evidence of both tire aging failures and the outsized effect of sustained heat on the aging mechanism.
“This trend was observed in NHTSA’s analysis of data provided by a large insurance company... It reported that 27 percent of its policy holders are from Texas, California, Louisiana, Florida, and Arizona, but 77 percent of the tire claims came from these states and 84 percent of these were for tires over 6 years old. While tire insurance claims are not necessarily an absolute measure of the failures due to aging, [they are] an indication that a large number of tire failures are likely occurring because of the affect of sustained high temperature on tires.”
NHTSA Research Report to Congress on Tire Aging.
When NHTSA conducted further testing in Arizona, they found not only that tires did show an increasing failure rate with age, especially at around 6 years, they also found that the rate of aging was only slightly less for spare tires.
“DOE analysis confirms that mileage was a relatively unimportant factor in [failures due to] aging compared to time. Thus time, not mileage, is the correct metric for tire aging... Besides variations from manufacturer to manufacturer, tire size, or more specifically, tire aspect ratio seems to effect the tire aging rate. Tires with higher aspect ratios age faster than tires with lower aspect ratios.”
Rubber Oxidation And Tire Aging - A Review.
“...the results support the hypothesis that spare tires could degrade while stored on the vehicle. This is a particular concern when coupled with the inflation pressures of full-size spare tires at retrieval. Over 30% of the passenger and light truck tires at the spare tire location had inflation pressures below the T&RA Load Table minimums. A recent study by the agency projected that more than 50% of passenger vehicles will still be on the road in the U.S. After 13 years of service, and more than 10% will still be on the road after 19 years. For light tucks, those figures go to 14 and 27 years respectively. Since few consumers replace their full-size spare tires when replacing on-road sets of tires, full-size spare tires have the potential for very long service lives. This elicits the logical concern that older full-size spare tires with possible degradations in capability may see emergency use while significantly underinflated.”
by Sean Phillips
Updated May 28, 2017
“The auto-oxidation of rubber has been known for a long time, and for a long time, too, it has been known that it plays an important part in spontaneous deterioration or aging, and it has been the object of numerous studies of much interest.” - Journal article from 1931
There's been quite a bit of controversy over the issue of tire aging lately. Many people would like to see manufacturers and dealers either put expiration dates on their tires or otherwise clearly mark the age of each tire for consumers at the time of purchase.
The issue came to a head earlier this year when Maryland debated a bill to require Maryland tire dealers to give consumers a printed statement on the dangers of tire aging whenever they sell a tire that is more than three years past its manufacture date. There are multiple and complex issues at stake here. Should tires have clearer dating? When is a tire too old to be safe? Should a tire be taken out of service because of age even if it has tread life remaining? If a new tire is stored for a long time should it be sold with a warning label or not sold at all?
The Science of Aging
“Tires are primarily degrading from the inside-out, due [to] permeation and reaction of the pressurized oxygen within the tire structure, with rates proportional to temperature.”
Summary of NHTSA Tire Aging Test Development Research
Tire aging is basically an issue of oxidation. As rubber is exposed to oxygen it dries out and becomes stiffer, leading to cracking.
The issue is primarily about how the inner, “wedge” layers of rubber oxidize. The stiffening and cracking of aged rubber can lead to the inner layers of the tire delaminating from the steel belts rather than flexing with the steel as the tire rolls under weight.
There are essentially four major factors that determine how fast a tire will age:
The Inner Liner. The inner liner of any tire is a specialized butyl rubber compound that is designed to be impermeable to air so as to keep the air inside the tire where it belongs. No inner liner is completely impermeable, so some air will always leak slowly through the liner due to osmosis. The quality of the inner liner determines just how much air leaks through, and therefore how fast the inner structure of the tire is exposed to oxygen.
Oxygen Concentration. It's pretty easy to see that oxidation rates will increase when the oxygen concentration is higher. What this means is that a tire that is mounted and filled with compressed air will age much faster than a tire that is simply being stored, because the air pressure is orders of magnitude higher in a filled tire, and more oxygen will permeate through the liner.
Heat. Oxidation of rubber occurs much faster under high heat than low heat. In essence, heat increases both the permeability and reactivity of oxygen, making it both easier for oxygen to get through the inner liner and easier for it to react with the rubber inside the tire.
Usage. When a tire is driven, the pressure and flexing motion circulate the internal oils through the rubber. These oils lubricate the internal rubber and keep it from drying and stiffening. So tires that are used less are often more vulnerable to aging effects.
The History of the Science
In 1989, ADAC, Germany’s consumer advocacy group concluded: “Even tires that are just six years old – though they appear to be brand new – can present a safety risk. Tire experts even say that if they are not used, indeed, tires age more quickly.”
In 1990, vehicle manufacturers including BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, and GM Europe, among others, included in the owner's manual warnings that tires older than six years should only be used in an emergency and replaced as soon as possible.
The British Rubber Manufacturer's Association noted that “BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over 6 years old and that all tyres should be replaced 10 years from the date of their manufacture.”
In 2005, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, and Bridgestone/Firestone added warnings that tires should be inspected at 5 years and replaced after 10.
Michelin and Continental issued similar bulletins in 2006. Hankook did so in 2009.
In 2007, NHTSA's Research Report to Congress on Tire Aging presented clear evidence of both tire aging failures and the outsized effect of sustained heat on the aging mechanism.
“This trend was observed in NHTSA’s analysis of data provided by a large insurance company... It reported that 27 percent of its policy holders are from Texas, California, Louisiana, Florida, and Arizona, but 77 percent of the tire claims came from these states and 84 percent of these were for tires over 6 years old. While tire insurance claims are not necessarily an absolute measure of the failures due to aging, [they are] an indication that a large number of tire failures are likely occurring because of the affect of sustained high temperature on tires.”
NHTSA Research Report to Congress on Tire Aging.
When NHTSA conducted further testing in Arizona, they found not only that tires did show an increasing failure rate with age, especially at around 6 years, they also found that the rate of aging was only slightly less for spare tires.
“DOE analysis confirms that mileage was a relatively unimportant factor in [failures due to] aging compared to time. Thus time, not mileage, is the correct metric for tire aging... Besides variations from manufacturer to manufacturer, tire size, or more specifically, tire aspect ratio seems to effect the tire aging rate. Tires with higher aspect ratios age faster than tires with lower aspect ratios.”
Rubber Oxidation And Tire Aging - A Review.
“...the results support the hypothesis that spare tires could degrade while stored on the vehicle. This is a particular concern when coupled with the inflation pressures of full-size spare tires at retrieval. Over 30% of the passenger and light truck tires at the spare tire location had inflation pressures below the T&RA Load Table minimums. A recent study by the agency projected that more than 50% of passenger vehicles will still be on the road in the U.S. After 13 years of service, and more than 10% will still be on the road after 19 years. For light tucks, those figures go to 14 and 27 years respectively. Since few consumers replace their full-size spare tires when replacing on-road sets of tires, full-size spare tires have the potential for very long service lives. This elicits the logical concern that older full-size spare tires with possible degradations in capability may see emergency use while significantly underinflated.”
Last edited by Randy G.; 01-11-2018 at 03:29 AM.
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Brian VH McHale (01-11-2018)
#35
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Nice write up on the tires even though I've read it before.
The only finding I see there is that tires used in very hot places tend to not last as long as other geographical areas. They also found spare tires with low air pressure.
The rest is all speculation and fluff! No conclusions. No science.
The only finding I see there is that tires used in very hot places tend to not last as long as other geographical areas. They also found spare tires with low air pressure.
The rest is all speculation and fluff! No conclusions. No science.
#36
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My wife does a lot capably, but driving isn't one of them. Observation isn't either.
Many years ago she drove a car with large sections of tread flying off the tires, and drivers all around her were wildly signaling her that something was badly wrong. She may have been able to drive on a total flat, who knows.
She also came home one time with a tire cut neatly radially from the wheel to the tread corner and had "no idea" how it happened.
#37
Race Director
Post #33 sounds like a good argument for filling tires with nitrogen instead of compressed air - like the Costco practice.
#38
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Thread Starter
Lightly scraped a wheel edge on a curb, which I repaired only to have her hit the same wheel again in the exact same, repaired spot. I asked her - how do you keep doing this? To which she described some tight corner in her cousins neighborhood that she has a hard time clearing if traffic is coming. All I could say was - Well, stop it.
#39
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I tend to agree with the others who suggest this could be road hazard damage rather than an inherent defect (or "aging") that caused the failure.
You say they are Continentals, but more information would be helpful, and you can read it right off the sidewall:
Tire model, size, and load index, which has the speed rating (example: P205/60R15 91S)?
Construction details, for example, 2 polyester sidewall plies, 2 steel tread plies, 1 nylon tread ply. (A nylon tread ply will usually only be found on tires rated H or above speed rating.)
What is the normal cold tire pressure, and how often do you check and adjust as necessary?
Also, take closer photos of the damaged area - tread and both sidewalls.
FWIW, back in 1989 when I ran my first Silver State Classic Challenge, a Ferrari Testrossa crashed killing the navigator wife of the physican from Chico who was driving, and the accident was attributed to tire failure.
So I wrote an article on how to select and prepare tires for open road racing that was published in the Vintage Racing (the sanctioning organization at the time) newsletter prior to the next year's race.
There were a couple of tire failures in the 1990 race, fortunately with no property damage or personal injury, and I investigated both. One was from a four-cylinder FWD Dodge coupe of the era (can't recall which end), maybe turbocharged, but not that fast - maybe 120-125 MPH top speed and the tires carried an H speed rating, 130 MPH, which was adequate.
The only parts of the tire left on the wheel were the two beads and about one inch of sidewall above both beads clear around the circumference. The cut looked like it was surgically done. The owner had talked to Goodyear and they would not honor the road hazard warranty (The adjustment is based on remaining tread.) because there was no tread depth to measure!
I recommended that he sue Goodyear in small claims court for complete set of replacement tires.
Duke
You say they are Continentals, but more information would be helpful, and you can read it right off the sidewall:
Tire model, size, and load index, which has the speed rating (example: P205/60R15 91S)?
Construction details, for example, 2 polyester sidewall plies, 2 steel tread plies, 1 nylon tread ply. (A nylon tread ply will usually only be found on tires rated H or above speed rating.)
What is the normal cold tire pressure, and how often do you check and adjust as necessary?
Also, take closer photos of the damaged area - tread and both sidewalls.
FWIW, back in 1989 when I ran my first Silver State Classic Challenge, a Ferrari Testrossa crashed killing the navigator wife of the physican from Chico who was driving, and the accident was attributed to tire failure.
So I wrote an article on how to select and prepare tires for open road racing that was published in the Vintage Racing (the sanctioning organization at the time) newsletter prior to the next year's race.
There were a couple of tire failures in the 1990 race, fortunately with no property damage or personal injury, and I investigated both. One was from a four-cylinder FWD Dodge coupe of the era (can't recall which end), maybe turbocharged, but not that fast - maybe 120-125 MPH top speed and the tires carried an H speed rating, 130 MPH, which was adequate.
The only parts of the tire left on the wheel were the two beads and about one inch of sidewall above both beads clear around the circumference. The cut looked like it was surgically done. The owner had talked to Goodyear and they would not honor the road hazard warranty (The adjustment is based on remaining tread.) because there was no tread depth to measure!
I recommended that he sue Goodyear in small claims court for complete set of replacement tires.
Duke
Last edited by SWCDuke; 01-11-2018 at 12:33 PM.
#40
Glad she is ok.
My wife drove 2 miles home on just the side walls, rest the tread was completely gone. I went back and found it still in one piece.
She didn't feel any difference... 2007 C350 Mercedes. (Her new one has tire pressure warnings.)
Switch to Bias... radials are over rated.
My wife drove 2 miles home on just the side walls, rest the tread was completely gone. I went back and found it still in one piece.
She didn't feel any difference... 2007 C350 Mercedes. (Her new one has tire pressure warnings.)
Switch to Bias... radials are over rated.
Last edited by 61corv; 01-11-2018 at 04:07 PM.