bj1k

Yes you got it all right . It was defective right out of the box but after finding a good machine shop check ,resurface and then recheck it the flywheel works good . The last machinist said that your work should always be checked , which the first machinist obviously didn't do on both of the flywheels that he did . As I said earlier , yours might be ok . RAM has always had a good reputation . But I wouldn't buy a RAM again just because they don't back them up with a guarantee . You are smart to check the full surface .

GTOguy

Much easier to check the run-out on the flywheel right after you install it rather than removing the trans and bellhousing after the fact. That said, I almost never check flywheels for run-out....never really have. I certainly will on my next clutch install, though!!!

Powershift

Back in the day we did not replace the flywheels very often. And when we did, they generally came from GM or Hays.........and were still made in the USA.

Now days it is a guess...............so you need to verify what you install. Especially because of the pain to redo things.

Larry

bj1k

You are fortunate that I had to go through all of the misery so you could benefit from the information . I think we all learned something from my experience . I'm old enough to remember when you didn't have to check flywheels for defects . They did things right .

bj1k

Sadly I'm back with the same problem . I thought after having the flywheel done correctly that it was just a matter of breaking in the new clutch to get rid of all of the shudder but some time has passed and it still has severe shudder in reverse . I have since taken it to the driveline specialist and we put it up on a rack with ramps so I could move it back and forth while he inspected it from underneath and found everything to look normal but when he drove it could not believe how bad it was . The only thing that he could suggest was to was to remove and inspect the trans and posi rear for binding etc. I had an extra non-posi which is known good so I switched the center sections and the problem is still there , so it just leaves the transmission as suspect since every other part in the driveline has been switched without curing the problem . What I need is the opinion from a 4 speed transmission expert on what could be binding in the transmission , especially in reverse . I've also been talking with the guys on the Tri Five forum about this issue and still no answers . Maybe I should just name the car Cristine . I watched the movie last night and saw many similarities with the possessed 58 Plymouth .

solidaxel

Oooo Noooo!

domenic tallarita

I haven't done a Munci for about 10 years but did many. There are guys here that are doing them and are experts.
All I want to say is that there is a lot of room for error as reverse starts out on the 1st gear on the cluster. 1st & reverse share that part of the cluster. Then it has to go from the main case to the tail by way of a idler and a shaft. Reverse slides back & forth on the main shaft. Possible that things are a bit worn. There are also spacers that will wear. Reverse is the only without a syncronizer. Possible wear on the sliding gear or shaft, or transfer from main case to tail case.
There are good guys that have seen what I am talking about and would be my choice of one to rebuild.

Dom

bj1k

Thanks for sharing that Dom . There does seem to be that connection to the problem being with the first and reverse gear and clutch reaction . Any idea what would cause it to be even worse in reverse ? Wear in the transmission could be a possibility because it sometimes jumps out of 2nd. gear when letting off of the gas and slowing down . BJ

Greg Hollowaty

Please contact an expert and his name is Paul Cangialosi (561) 743 5600. Paul's company is called 5speed and wrote the book on transmission repair. You will find his work on YouTube.

Good luck and keep us advised.

http://www.5speeds.com/word.html

http://www.5speeds.com/

DansYellow66

At this point anything is just a wild guess. Are the spring bushings good and solid? Shackles tight? U-bolts tight on rear axle? Any difference in reverse between slowly engaging the clutch holding the engine near idle versus reving the engine and engaging the clutch more abruptly?

bj1k

That's what is so unbelievable about this problem . Everything is new including the springs , U-bolts ,bushings , and new shackles. The new U-bolts were re-tightened after 300 miles as directed . The severe shutter is at just above idle in reverse when releasing the clutch and as you would suspect if you rev the engine much higher when releasing the clutch it would be hardly noticeable but not practical to drive it that way which would just burn up the clutch . I'm going to see a local Corvette guy ( friend ) that has a lot of corvettes and parts to see if I can borrow a transmission to try .

bj1k

Thanks Greg . I sent him an email explaining the problem . This has been such an unusual problem that I have been keeping everyone informed and plan to until the problem is found . Maybe it can help someone else in the future . Thanks Again , BJ

domenic tallarita

BJ,
Jumping out of 2nd gear is a defenate rebuild. Get one of the guys that do it all the time. I can, but am up to my ears. I have lots of parts and a built trans on the shel fthat I think it's a 256 first, the wide ratio good for the tall gears but there are members that will help. I actually put 2 extra roller bearings to stop cluster flex. when shifting 2nd and third. That was for racing with a heavy fly wheel! Had to shorten the spacer between the 4 rollers and add the extra rollers, 6 total sets. Think they were 20 rollers per set.

Dom

DansYellow66

Another good transmission reference is Larry at D&L transmissions.

http://www.dandltransmission.com/

It's best to call him as he is kind of hot and cold on email. He's an old school transmission mechanic similar to Paul - matter of fact I think they are pretty closely acquainted and share a lot of expertise. He's a good guy to talk to.

That said, this just doesn't seem like a transmission problem. I thought - well maybe the reverse gear idler is worn and its skipping a tooth or something - but if so, I would think it would be just as bad when you rev it up and slip the clutch. Kicking out of gear is a definite issue of wear, but to start a severe shudder, jumping would seem to require some badly worn rollers or bearing that would host a whole bunch of other transmission issues. But, can't hurt to check it out.

benrep

Have you run a vacuum test as pointed out in post 103? I have also seen engine shudder at idle transition being loose valves. Vacuum should be smooth not pulsing when transitioning from idle to part throttle while engaging clutch. A weak valve spring can also cause weird problems. Check vacuum! Also, just recently I helped a friend with a Chevy truck that had a horrible shudder on low gear clutch engagement (forward or reverse). It was a binding almost dead u-joint.

Westlotorn

It should not pop out of gear so a rebuild is in order. Have not seen that cause chatter but who knows. We find something new every day.
Are you sure your pilot bushing is good in the crankshaft?

I have a GM Yukon, now at 100,000 miles. For 30,000 miles I chased a vibration, unrelated to yours of course.
Installed new drivelines, had the rear done twice and speed balanced. Changed the rear axle, bearings, even changed axle shafts because I found them slightly out of round spinning them with a dial indicator on them.
Changed the rear axle angle a couple times with no effect or solution.
I ran this car on jack stands with a stethoscope and could not find a the vibration. No load on the jack stands eliminated the vibration.
Frustrated me for a couple years.
Local GM Service Rep told me it was just an Exhaust resonation common in many of these GM SUV's. I did not buy that one since you could feel it in the floorboards as they shook.
Finally I got a leak in my transfer case. The repair in this case involved replacing the rear half of the transfer case housing, these are known for transfer case chain wear causing a leak in the case.
When I installed the new transfer case rear housing re using all the original bearings and driveline parts my vibration went 100% away and the car is now silky smooth.
The new housing is also redesigned so it avoids future chain wear.
The only new part that I assume to have fixed this issue is the new bushing that came installed in the new transfer case rear housing. The bushing is what the front yoke on the driveline plugs into.
I had tried a new front yoke already so I knew my yoke was fine but I never considered changing the bushing at the transfer case output.
Sometimes the cure is just out of sight or thought but obvious once found.
This vehicle is not used daily just when I need to move trailers somewhere or when a 4x4 is needed, so I kept plugging at it because a vibration drives me nuts. It did not belong there and I wanted to fix it.
Proper diagnosis would have saved me a lot time, frustration and money.

Drothgeb

Desert Nomad

I was down at a local speed shop yesterday and got in a discussion with one of the guys behind the counter. They use to have a machine shop in house which did all this type of work on flywheels, balancing and of drive-line components. Seemed very knowledgeable, so I asked him about clutch shudder and chatter as noted in this thread. He said if the flywheel and pressure plate were known to be resurfaced and balanced properly, sometimes chatter and shudder can be due to the type of material that the clutch is made out of. The clutch plate is attempting to grab the surface of the flywheel as the clutch is released and due to the material its made out of tends to grab differently causing the chatter, verses another clutch plate which may be made out of different material maybe softer which gives a more smoother engagement. He pointed out McLeod as one of the clutch's that do this sometimes. Odd, because that's what I'm running in my 67. I have noticed a slight shudder when backing up a incline or going forward slowly up a incline, but not normally on take off. Also, when I first installed it, which has been close to two years, I noticed a metallic smell when coming from the clutch/flywheel area when shutting down in the garage which he said was also common with McLeod. I don't have that any more though. I still think McLeod is a great clutch though as it fixed my original problem about clutch pedal engagement. I just pose this as another possibility and an opinion from another person that has dealt with this.

DansYellow66

Yeah, I'm on my 3rd McLeod clutch - 2 with a standard disc and a dual-friction disc in my Corvette now - and I've not experienced that. Not that it isn't possible but I doubt it's the issue. Not sure why a clutch would behave differently in reverse than in first, other than a bit of difference in the gear multiplication. But I want to say I've experienced that too many years ago. I hope he can get it figured out and share the mystery with us.

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