What did GM do after points? Oh that's right HEI. They are very cheep and very dependable. I have three in use right now. New off Ebay 50bucks. Had one on the dyno good to 6000 no worries. Even have one in a 455 Oldsmoblie in a jet boat

 

I have posted this info here before, but it warrants an occasional re-hash. Bottom line: Buy, use and install whatever ignition system you are comfortable with tuning. Here is a re-post of an article I did not long ago:

What Distributor and Ignition System is "The Best" for my Street Car?
By Lars

The "best" distributor and ignition system to use is the one you're comfortable with setting up and tuning. Any two systems, set up with the same timing curve, will perform virtually the same on a mild street car. For a mild performance street-driven car, I also highly recommend getting one with vacuum advance, and there are many to choose from.
To demonstrate the equivalent performance from one system to another, I actually did dyno testing at Westech with Hot Rod Magazine several years ago. Here are the results that I've published here on the Forum before:

A few years ago, I did a bit of dyno testing at Westech Performance with Matt King, former Editor of Hot Rod Magazine. We tested several of the aftermarket capacitive discharge systems and top-end distributors against a plain ol' points-type distributor. The engine was a nice street-type 302 Ford putting out 370 horsepower. We tested ignition systems and distributors from Crane, MSD, and Mallory, making sure that each distributor had exactly the same centrifugal advance curve in it with the same total timing. Once these nice aftermarket systems were tested, we went out in the parking lot and pulled the stock points distributor out of Matt King's crap Falcon: We set it up with the same advance curve on Westech's distributor machine and dropped it in the 302 test engine. Results: There was no change in the engine's performance whatsoever at any point on the rpm curve. Absolutely none.

So here's the recommendation: Run whatever distributor you're comfortable with tuning and curving, and set it up with a good performance curve to match the needs of your engine. Whether this is a tach-drive points-type distributor, an HEI, or an MSD ProBillet is completely irrelevant as long as you can get it set up right. Buy something of good quality that is easily tunable, and make sure you run vacuum advance on any street-driven engine. Trigger boxes, amplifiers, huge coils, and fancy systems will not gain you anything on a moderate performance street engine - spend your time getting the curve and total timing set up right on whatever system you use - that's where the power is.

Here's Matt King (black shirt) and me setting up the points distributor from his Falcon in the 302 test engine to run head-to-head against the top-end capacitive discharge systems:


Notice that we even used the old crap wires out of Matt's Falcon for the testing:


Here's the same engine with one of the fancy aftermarket systems in it and some really nice red plug wires:


Famed Westech Dyno Operator Steve Brule (left) overseeing the testing:


Results: Absolutely no change in power whatsoever from one system to another, as long as the advance curve remained the same (note Matt King's astounded "I can't freakin believe it" expression):


Here is my own 407 that's in my '64 Roadster on the engine dyno. It puts out 500 hp with 500 ft/lbs torque. I run the stock tach drive distributor with a nice set of points and an aggressive advance curve which nails the optimum total timing for max power and performance. All you need is to get the curve right and the total timing right in a system you know how to tune. Everything else is fluff:


Running the additional benefit from vacuum advance (limited to 12 degrees) hooked up to manifold vacuum makes a huge difference in idle quality and engine operating temperature of this big-cammed, solid roller engine:


Lars

 

Thanks Lars, that make a lot of sense.

 

Thanks for all the info and I understand what you men are saying,
but I am still scratching my head on how you figure out the right
advance curve for a given engine, and then how you dial in the distributer
to that?

For example, I have the typical 383 small block chevy that is supposedly
going to put out about 430 gross hp. Spirited street driving and no racing
on the track. Sniper fuel injection

How would I know what the advance curve should be and how do I get there?

Glenn in San Diego

 

Glenn, in your case, I would go with the Holley Hyper Spark ignition for the Sniper EFI kit. They're designed to work together.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...park_ignition/

From what I can tell, that distributor and ignition box allow you to control your ignition curve through the Sniper ECU. If it works anything like the Terminator ECU I'm running on my Suburban, it makes tuning timing, fuel curve, etc all very simple.

 

Cool
but tach drive?

Glenn

 

Yes, you'd need to have your '63 tach converted to electrical.

 

All kinds. Pertronix gets the win for limited upper RPM and poor reliability, though. Have had many HEI, BID, etc. ignitions come in on a hook due to bad magnetic pickup or module. Over the decades, 100's of failures. Can count the number of tow-ins due to points/condenser failures on one hand. Have also logged 100's of thousands of miles on cars with points ignitions. Look at Lars's dyno figures on a stock points distributor VS electronic in the same engine. Zero benefit, power wise. Why do you want to change it out----for the sake of change?

 

I don't necessarily want to change it out, simply exploring whether there is a better option....and by better I mean more reliable, that doesn't require adjustment over time. The answer to my question may very well be "no", but when it comes to distributor ignition systems, Im learning as I go here. My experience with points is admittedly limited, but I had a hell of a time getting the ignition in a 1960 F100 I restored for the family of a friend sorted. Between multiple sets of crappy (probably off-shore) points, bad coils, and an internal short to ground in the original distributor itself, I had a hell of a time getting that truck on the road....good learning experience though.

With regard to the current state of my car, Im going to leave it as-is for now and see what tips I can pick up watching over the shoulder of the tech as it gets tuned.

 

I use standard brand points in my Chevelle, dad has Accel brand in his cars we both use original GM coils.

 

What did we decide a couple weeks ago ? GM did away with points in 1974 ? I use HEI in 4 of my Vettes and crankfire in another, not been stranded in many, many yrs. I for one will never go back to points. To each his own. Do what makes YOU comfortable .

 

I've had great results with NOS Delco points and condensers sourced off ebay or at swap meets. I use them in my GTO's as well as Corvette. They last for years and years, or about 15-20k miles. The Delco 112 points have a much stiffer spring than the 106 points, but I haven't had any issues with the 106 points up to 6500 rpm.....ever. The HEI ignition was developed to keep the car within emissions warranty specs for the duration and mileage of the warranty. Same with Platinum spark plugs today.

 

and GM went away with HEI in production cars in the early 90’s.

 

Aaaaand did they go back to points ?

 

no they went with something better then HEI but I don’t see everyone wanting to convert to that system.

 

Not entirely true.....eventually my car will likely see some form of Holley fuel injection with ignition control. There are a fair number of us that recognize the benefit of 50+ years of technological advances. At this time however, I'm not looking to invest that kind of time or money into a full electrical/fuel system overhaul....hence the interest in optimizing the factory ignition set up.

 

Good background, thanks. Are the 112 points a better option with the solid lifter motor that does occasionally see redline as opposed to the 106?

 

Flynavy30 and All

This is an interesting discussion and all points are good. Yes, GM went to an electronics system and away from points and condensers. But they addressed heat issues to make them reliable. Some of the after market electronics manufacture make good stuff and some have gone off shore to source products and unfortunate compromised their quality.

I own and operate a certified airplane. The FAA controls the acceptance of aftermarket parts that are deemed suitable for use in a certified airplane. It is telling that the FAA mandates the use of an 80+ year old designed ignition system called a magneto. Airplanes have two ignition systems that are independent of the ships electrical system and them selves. Meaning, you can have a complete electrical failure plus one magneto fail and the engine will still run. The FAA has been approached by electronic ignition manufactures asking to allow their system to replace magnetos. At this time one electronic system is allowed but the ship must have at least one magneto. If you buy a $1M new piston powered airplane it will come with elector-mechanical magnetos.

My point is, I'm a points and condenser guy. It is simple, reliable and I can fix it on the fly, well on the ground... Al

 

That's correct. The HEI system was designed to be more durable than points, and to also deliver more spark energy to the plugs than points systems, to reliably fire lean mixtures.

Reliability and higher energy are plusses for performance engines and helping keep rich mixture/fouled plugs firing sufficiently.

 

They went with systems that eliminated the mechanical distributor and rotor/gap wear issues. That makes sense for daily driver vehicles that are going to be driven 200k miles. It makes no economic sense to convert our antiques to a distributorless system, as we don't/won't drive them enough miles to offset the high cost and labor to retrofit these systems to our old engines.