I can see both sides of it. My dad has a numbers matching fully restored Riverside Gold 1969 350/300 4 speed. Maybe not the most desirable motor, but it's still all original. And yes, it DOES have under 100,000 miles on it. 54,3xx, actually. Ya, he cherishes that car more than he does my mother, but it'll be worth something someday.

I, on the other hand, have a White 1981. Nothing special about it at all. It's in really nice condition, but it's no trailer queen. Just turned 79,000 miles on it, and it's my daily driver. I plan on doing a lot to it to make it my own car. Already has exhaust, and I plan on new heads, intake, carb, and cam. Sure, it might be worth something in original condition someday, but I'm not building someone else's car, I'm building MY car.

 

Im an NCRS Counldntbe

 

This has got to be one of the most fun but ridiculous topics to debate becausethere is nothing anyone from one side of the argument can say to the other side that will change the other side's mind. It's all pretty much allready been said and I don't personally know anyone that has jumped from one side of the argument to the other. The thing I think about is that the bigger percentage of these cars will be for sale one day (mine too) and the question is which cars will bring more money (or not loose as much)?

Numbers matter when it comes selling time. It's as simple as that. However, numbers matching means exactly that. If you throw the word "original" in there then you've got a whole "nuther" ball of wax. If the numbers match then they match. I think it's just silly when someone asks what color should I paint my car, or what kind of wheels should I buy, or what color should I make the interior when we all know the overwhelming response will be: Dude you should build it however you want because it's your car. Well what if I want to restamp and make the numbers (dates & casting numbers) match. The overwhelming response will be that I'm a faker or a liar or some kind of b.s. Well last I checked it's still my car and until I try to pass it off as someting it's not then no one has been lied to or otherwise deceived.

The thing I don't understand is that you can replace every body panel, get a dated radiator, a dated convertible top, dated spark plugs wires, a whole new interior and everything else and no one will say anything. But if I restamp a motor people act as though I've committed a capital crime.

This corvette game is a business. Again, plain and simple. Numbers matter. If they didn't you wouldn't be able to get all of the dated parts I mentioned above. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound as though I have a problem modding these cars because last I checked it's still your car. But a person would be ignoring the facts if he or she believed that matching numbers didn't matter.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to find my kevlar vest.

 

I could never imagine that car dealers (or anyone else) would ever do anything unscrupulous to fill their pockets with $$$

 

A guy at a show started telling me all about his numbers matching vette. Every number matched and was verified. And the engine had been punched out and stroked... Which seemed to defeat the purpose of keeping the car numbers matching. At least to me. Maybe I'm crazy. Stranger things have happened.

 

I've owned both and was glad to unload the matching cars which just sat and looked back at me. I have a ton of fun with my non matching Corvettes.

 

I think the Holy Church of the Matching Number has done more to damage overall Corvette values than anything else. With every other type of desirable car, both original and modifieds have good value - look at Mustangs and Camaros, for instance. With Corvettes, there is such a loud group that constantly decries any deviation from the factory line...I think it turns potential buyers off. There's plenty of room for all of us...the "matching numbers" screetchers need to back off and learn to live and let live.

 

I read an account of an interview with Zora Arkus-Duntov in an issue of Corvette News where he admitted to signing an order to have them returned to the engine assembly plant. What he would not admit to was where they actually went.

 

Sounds like Duntov. GM had a lot of maverick personalities back in the day...

 

I have the original engine in my car, and I couldn't care less. Partly because it's an '81 and is a long way away from being with much. I buy cars to drive and enjoy, not to collect dust, look at, or trailer to a show.

I have two other vehicles to finish getting the way I want, then I'll start on the Vette (continue on it actually, but start the big $$ stuff). High on the list of things to do is junk the original engine for a much better modern EFI setup.

If I buy a car it will be something I don't mind driving the crap out of.

 

Well, thats coming from someone who's got a C-1 as his avatar. You talk to the people in this forum who have rubber bumpers and I bet almost all would say they care less.

If I had a numbers 68, I would be in heaven. But I have a numbers survivor 75, original paint and all, pulled out of a barn a few years back, and its not staying numbers.

It all comes down to money. You put a numbers 65 up for auction vs. a numbers 75. Its a no brainer which car is gonna draw more.

So no, I don't think you're close. I think you generalized the corvette hobby too much.

 

Batman, I have never agreed with you more. I've also felt for a long time that this is what makes more people lean toward something other than a vette. We are in our own little world of vette lovers but most people at the cruises would rather have a Camaro or a Mustang and those of you older members will remember were a cheap grocery getter for the wife as a second car so why do they have such a following now ? Because you can modify it and still have a lot of value in it. Look at street rods ! When is the last time you heard someone refer to it as being matching numbers ? But look at the value everyone puts on them. It's all about the times. I think most people look at those prissy matching number cars as boring and are looking for something that they can enjoy.

 

My view point is that numbers matching only matters if your buying it make profit. I bought my 68 without an engine at all. I am rebuilding the car and I plan on keeping it till I die. In that aspect I don't care about numbers matching at all.

 

And let me guess, You guys that are agreeing with vettebuyer all have numbers matching. AM I CLOSE ?

 

 

Amen brother, well said

 

What most are forgetting here is that these cars (C1,2, and 3/4 of C3's) got there mileage 1/4 at a time and were drive harder by each consecutive owner until the engine blew, the car hit a power pole or tree OR BOTH! The majority of the cars out there no longer have 100% of there original driveline and have sustained some sort of body damage over 30-50 years. Not until a model becomes 20-25 years old do they become objects of affection and not used cars.

If you had a reunion for all the '67 L88's, 50 of the 20 built would come each with documentation blah, blah, blah. You can build a complete, correct car starting with nothing more than a title.

I still have a few boxes of broken trophies from my car show days, but went racing instead because the clock is the same for everybody. The only lies are committed in tech. /:\

Speaking of which, GM made a couple hundred ZL-1 motors most of which went to the Can-Am series. Now where do you suppose all those motors went? And aluminum is alot easier to repair than steel.

 

Nonsense. My '69 is numbers matching, but I have no interest in NCRS, and I don't look down my nose at non matching cars either. My car continues to be modified as time and money permits, mainly because I have little tolerance for how crude these cars are. Don't get me wrong, I love my '69 (w/69,162 miles), and I've had it since I was eighteen, but I've lost my love of cast iron (I'm building a modestly cammed ZL1 for it, and replaced the heavy Delco calipers with lightweight Wilwood calipers), the twitchiness of the rear suspension (I'm installing a C4 suspension on a spare frame I bought off ebay), and crappy gas mileage (I installed a five speed and different rear gears years ago). I've also got other mods too numerous to go into detail about.
At the risk of being labeled a hypocrite, I'll confess I have kept most of the original parts I took off. They might come in handy down the road when my estate needs to sell the car, but in the meantime they're going to just sit in the corner of the garage gathering dust, as I have no daily use for this stuff.

 

I think it's a shame that this is such an issue.

Some who are collectors of museum pieces are snobbish enough to think that anything not numbers matching isn't worth having. And that's a real shame.

And then there are those thieves who will prey on the "got to be numbers matching" group. And that's also a shame, but probably to be expected, since it seems to be a rule that those with more money the brains must be ripped off.

Personally, I see no need for numbers matching. But I also think a survivor is much more interesting than a "restored" car, since the restored car is usually way overdone.



FWIW: I worked on the assembly line at GM years back. Bought a 66 big block vert while there. Kept if for a long, long time. Drove a 66 VW as my DD, so the Vette had very low miles. Entered it in a show ONE time. My one owner, ALL original car was deemed not original by 3 judges.

That was the last show for me. And the last numbers matching, all original ever.


Want a good laugh look at the dipsticks who claim "numbers matching" and "frame off" for old Mustangs (I have a 65 Coupe). I always ask "What numbers match? And how exactly did you get it off the frame?".....

 

Part of the problem (and I am only going to deal with this part, because I don't have time to give my entire 5 page shpiel on the topic!) is that we have not defined what "matching numbers" means.

Now, don't start posting your definition on account of me, but if you did, we would find a difference of opinion.

Some think it only refers to the engine and transmission and implies originality. But we know there are restamps, "restoration engines" and forgeries that are not original but do have the right numbers and are therefore "matching numbers."

I have this idea that some day we will find a 1967 435 hp convertible that is completely totally fully numbers matching. Every last frigging part on the car has the correct number and date stamped on it, and the car was fabricated entirely from scratch in China. And don't think they can't or won't do it if they can sell if for $200k in the U.S. Probably make it for $10k with slave labor in China.

Sometimes you see an ad that states, "ALL NUMBERS MATCH." Well, in that case does it mean your carburetor has the right number and date or does it mean your carb is original (as if you could tell) and what about your jack - correct date? Mirrors? "ALL NUMBERS" should mean all, right?

My engine appears to be original with the vin stamp and suffix and all, so is my car "numbers matching"? I don't know!! Lots of other parts appear to be replacements. I do prize the fact that the engine is (to the best of my knowledge) original.

I think the hobby would be better off if we just stopped using the term "matching numbers." I prefer, "all original with all the original parts" or "restored to original condition with many original parts"