Missing ZL-1?
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 763
From: Barrington IL
Amazing to me that after all these years the tank sticker shows up for the white car. All there was prior was the letter from the original owner. The L/88 would pull 535 to 565 hp at 6,500 rpms, in stock trim with dyno headers. The ZL-1 would pull a few more on the dyno, but due to the distortion of the cylinder walls when the engine got hot, it would actually pull about 10-15 hp less than the L/88 when both were prepped identically.
I don't know much about the cars, but I bought my first L/88 engine in early 1970 and have owned one or two of the cars.
I don't know much about the cars, but I bought my first L/88 engine in early 1970 and have owned one or two of the cars.
There is no way a ZL1 puts out 100hp more than a second design L88. I would bet that the L88 would put out slightly more power for the reasons Dick stated. As for the documentation, if they have not been carbon dated, then I would question their authenticity.BTW I have a couple of friends that own ZL 1 camaros and it dynoed at 540hp with headers. That same person dynoed his L88 and it put out 557hp on the same dyno.
Last edited by SBR; Sep 22, 2009 at 10:54 AM.
Race Director
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Racer
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 326
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From: Harrodsburg KY
Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 645
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From: Hayward Wi
has any one every tryed this method??
figuring how many ZL-1s were made.
then seeing how many went into Camaros, chevells (dont know if they went into them)
how many for sure went as crate engines. how many went MIA ie Zora took them to his skunk works.
then seeing how many went to for sure known ZL-1 vette and dealer converted cars. after all that see whats left over and then you should have an idea how many ZL-1 vettes could be out there give or take an few either way.
figuring how many ZL-1s were made.
then seeing how many went into Camaros, chevells (dont know if they went into them)
how many for sure went as crate engines. how many went MIA ie Zora took them to his skunk works.
then seeing how many went to for sure known ZL-1 vette and dealer converted cars. after all that see whats left over and then you should have an idea how many ZL-1 vettes could be out there give or take an few either way.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,206
Likes: 8
From: Belmar NJ
A good idea if one motor/one car applied. It does not however as many were used in Can Ams, hydroplanes and drag cars (often more than one as they were built on the edge for racing and blown up). That being said, aluminum is easier to fix than steel, so how many were written off by top teams, sold as scrap to second or third tier teams and salvaged (using two or more to get one good one)? /:\
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 29
Likes: 1
From: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Ed,
Good to see you posting here!
Was that the first or second tank sticker this car showed up with?
I did a pre-purchase inspection for a gentleman who was interested in buying this car a few years ago. The trim tag was the real deal and was definitely coded for Monaco orange... End of story.
What I have learned from my research:
Chevrolet records indicate two ZL-1 optioned Corvettes were produced for sale during the 1969 model year.
There is no supporting evidence that these Chevrolet records are 100% accurate or complete.
The ownership history and documentation on the Daytona yellow car is sufficient to convince me that it was originally built as a ZL-1 Corvette at the St. Louis assembly plant.
There is no supporting evidence that the Daytona yellow car is one of the two that Chevrolet claims that they built for sale. It might be, but there is no documentation to prove that it is.
The remaining cars (Monaco orange, Can Am white, and Lemans blue) have issues to varying degrees. That doesn't mean that they were not originally ZL-1 cars, but it does create doubt as to what they originally were built as.
I am unaware of a Riverside gold car. Not to say that there wasn't one, but in 30 years of fanatically tracking Corvettes of this era, I think that I would have heard something about it.
If I had Donnally's money and dropping several million dollars on a 1969 Corvette was an option, the only car that I would make an offer on (at this point in time) is the Daytona yellow car that Roger owns.
Regards,
Stan Falenski
Good to see you posting here!
Was that the first or second tank sticker this car showed up with?
I did a pre-purchase inspection for a gentleman who was interested in buying this car a few years ago. The trim tag was the real deal and was definitely coded for Monaco orange... End of story.
What I have learned from my research:
Chevrolet records indicate two ZL-1 optioned Corvettes were produced for sale during the 1969 model year.
There is no supporting evidence that these Chevrolet records are 100% accurate or complete.
The ownership history and documentation on the Daytona yellow car is sufficient to convince me that it was originally built as a ZL-1 Corvette at the St. Louis assembly plant.
There is no supporting evidence that the Daytona yellow car is one of the two that Chevrolet claims that they built for sale. It might be, but there is no documentation to prove that it is.
The remaining cars (Monaco orange, Can Am white, and Lemans blue) have issues to varying degrees. That doesn't mean that they were not originally ZL-1 cars, but it does create doubt as to what they originally were built as.
I am unaware of a Riverside gold car. Not to say that there wasn't one, but in 30 years of fanatically tracking Corvettes of this era, I think that I would have heard something about it.
If I had Donnally's money
and dropping several million dollars on a 1969 Corvette was an option, the only car that I would make an offer on (at this point in time) is the Daytona yellow car that Roger owns.Regards,
Stan Falenski
Thanks for your comments.
The red ZL1 press demonstration car was a coupe not a convertible. This further reinforces your comments above about the Monoco Orange convertible.
Sincerely,
Greg Fadler
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Advanced
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 59
Likes: 5
If you know all about these cars and engines how do you not mention (or seem to know)that there were two versions of the L-88. Why was the ZL-1 engine having to be slipped out of the factory in corvettes, when they were putting ZL-1's in camaros? I believe I remember magazines of the period telling of RPO ZL-1, (RPO meaning Regular Production Option), and giving a list price for it when ordered on a 1969 corvette. Too many questions for me to buy into all of this. I guess it doesn't matter as I have never had the money to play in this league, but I don't like to see false / mis-leading information put out either. Like the time (about 1971) I heard about a cop car that was special ordered with a ZL-1 engine, and the factory built it. It was suppost to be in a junk yard near where I was living at the time, and the motor was still in it because nobody knew what it was. Yeah right. Because of that rumor, there may still be someone who believes there were cop cars built that way.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Likes: 55
From: Southeast Ohio
In the Spring issue of Muscle Cars Magazine The White car was featured. The build sheet then showed the engine as L88 at $1032.15.
In the Dec. 1991 issue of Vette magazine, the Orange car was featured. The article doesn't say Mr. Maher ordered the car. It says that he got a call from a salesman at a local dealership asking if he would be interested in a ZL1 powered Vette. Since it had a Turbo 400, he said yes.
At the time of the article, the tank sticker showed the engine as a
ZL-1 "Special Turbo-Jet" 427.
In the Dec. 1991 issue of Vette magazine, the Orange car was featured. The article doesn't say Mr. Maher ordered the car. It says that he got a call from a salesman at a local dealership asking if he would be interested in a ZL1 powered Vette. Since it had a Turbo 400, he said yes.
At the time of the article, the tank sticker showed the engine as a
ZL-1 "Special Turbo-Jet" 427.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Likes: 55
From: Southeast Ohio
Since alot of us are not able to go to high profile car shows and talk to the actual owners due to geographic location or scheduling conflicts, etc. we have to rely on what is printed in magazines.
The Corvette Fever article and the Vette Magazine article were worlds apart on what was said about the Orange car. One said that Mr. Maher Ordered his ZL1 from Don Yenko and traded his 68 L88 on it. Then someone from Gulf had to get involved with Chevrolet to make sure the car got built.
The other article (I'm sure there were more than just these, but that's all I have seen) says that Mr. Maher sold his 68 L88 to Don Yenko, then later got a call from a salesman at a local dealership to see if he would be interested in a ZL1 that they already had.
While these articles didn't say exactly the same thing about how the car was aquired, they did say the paper work showed the car as a factory built ZL1.
The "ORIGINAL" paperwork on the White car seems to have changed from the mid-80's when it said L88, then it was lost for a while to now when it shows ZL1.
All the articles I've seen on the Yellow car seem to start at the beginning and say basically the same thing.
The Blue one and Gold one are nice surprises & It will be very interesting to hear their stories. But with companies advertising their services to reproduce engine pad stamps & broach marks and other companies offering "aged" paperwork, anything can pop up now.
The Corvette Fever article and the Vette Magazine article were worlds apart on what was said about the Orange car. One said that Mr. Maher Ordered his ZL1 from Don Yenko and traded his 68 L88 on it. Then someone from Gulf had to get involved with Chevrolet to make sure the car got built.
The other article (I'm sure there were more than just these, but that's all I have seen) says that Mr. Maher sold his 68 L88 to Don Yenko, then later got a call from a salesman at a local dealership to see if he would be interested in a ZL1 that they already had.
While these articles didn't say exactly the same thing about how the car was aquired, they did say the paper work showed the car as a factory built ZL1.
The "ORIGINAL" paperwork on the White car seems to have changed from the mid-80's when it said L88, then it was lost for a while to now when it shows ZL1.
All the articles I've seen on the Yellow car seem to start at the beginning and say basically the same thing.
The Blue one and Gold one are nice surprises & It will be very interesting to hear their stories. But with companies advertising their services to reproduce engine pad stamps & broach marks and other companies offering "aged" paperwork, anything can pop up now.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 38,923
Likes: 1,481
From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
Thankfully, there are several Corvette authors who know their stuff. Those are the folks you can rely on. I always check the author before delving into the text.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Likes: 55
From: Southeast Ohio
Easy Mike,
You are exactly right! I am often guilty of thinking "I read it in a magazine, so it MUST be true". I need to get rid of that mindset. Often different Magazines contradict each other with articles about the same car. My problem is that even though an author has some facts mixed up, he still knows more than I do.
Forums such as this one are a great tool for learning & I appreciate the help I receive from everyone.
You are exactly right! I am often guilty of thinking "I read it in a magazine, so it MUST be true". I need to get rid of that mindset. Often different Magazines contradict each other with articles about the same car. My problem is that even though an author has some facts mixed up, he still knows more than I do.
Forums such as this one are a great tool for learning & I appreciate the help I receive from everyone.
Racer
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 300
Likes: 1
From: Syracuse, NY
Re: Zl-1
I have a copy of the March 2006 Corvette Fever Mag. with the article on John Maher's Orange ZL-1. The original tank sticker is shown with the legendary ZL-1 engine option with Auto Trans and ordered in Monoco Orange. If this tank sticker is indeed the original then this proves that this is an original factory installed ZL-1. I heard that John sold this car recently, can anybody confirm this?
Last edited by Iliad; Jan 13, 2010 at 10:10 PM.
Cruising
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Curious as to the BLOCKS in these cars...were they all 3946052's? I have a ZL-1 / Can Am Prototype block, Casting:0-294550, Stamp Pad: 70065 53-W. Was wondering of the possibility of this block ever being in a test mule. Ii's a 427 (sleeved (.040 over) Mech fuel pump provision, dry sump, no date). I've also acquired some NEAT paperwork from GM engineering with the casting numbers and Build Work Order numbers listed...as well as "PROCURE MARK IV ALUMINUM CYLINDER AND CASES For test (1969 Corvette)"...Program 28600 (Nov. 1967). Design Ordere No. 17230-133 / (Interestingly, the same Build Work Order Number). Also have docs dated '68 regarding "18 Aluminum L-88 type 427 cu. in. engines"....subsequently changed to Quantity of 44 in March '68 (Design Order number 19950-17 / Build Work Order: 70065-53 (MY BLOCK's STAMP PAD NUMER). Zora's, Piggins, Devine, Ellis, Polkinghorne etc..involvement. ANY help on this block would be GREATLY appreciated. ZL1Johnny@YAHOO.Com
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Doha
St. Jude Donor '08
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2010
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From: Dorado Puerto Rico
By the way, my avatar is the 1969 Corvette ZL1 Saturday Night Special, the test car that later got the 454 LT2 prototype engine that never saw production. What do you have to say about the Corvette in my avatar ?
Once again, please DO write the book.
Have a nice week end !
José, from Puerto Rico
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From: Northern Germany
Yodeling greets from Switzerland
,Martin
