Clams Canino

Point of order?
I would submit that since the block is "prime" - you don't/can't convert an L88 to a ZL1.
You can gut an L88 to build up your ZL1 block - but I'd still submit you then have a newly created ZL1, not a converted L88.

-W

parkerracing

Convert was the wrong word. Swap would have been a better choice. L88 and L89 cars were the chassis of choice but I'm sure some sb cars became bb cars. And since so much of this was being done back in the day, all those original L88/9 cars can't/don't exist.

bigdaddyvet

Ok I am new here however i have done EXTENSIVE research on the ZL-1 and can shed some light and information on this thread. FACT GM built between 7 and 9 ZL-1 corvettes. These cars were ACTUAL ZL-1s NOT an L-88 "converted" to a ZL-1. Of these 7-9 car 1 POSSIBLY 2 convertables were built 1 automatic and 1 4-spd. Yes GM built a bunch of ZL-1 motors however the corvette ZL-1 motor WAS different then the camaro or the over the counter motor. I am not going to say what is different as many of the camaro motors over the years have been passed off as a corvette motor and in reality they are not. AT LEAST 20 of the corvette ZL-1 motors were built in the Tonawanda engine plant of these 20+ motors, 7-9 made it into ACTUAL ZL-1 cars. The cars were "snuck" out of the assembly plant with the motors painted and most likely sold as L-88's however they were actually ZL-1s and the tank sticker reflects them as ZL-1's. In close circles GM HAS verfied this fact. I also want to speak on the HP issues with the rumors the L-88 actually had more horse. This is TOTALLY untrue. A true unrestored L-88 was dynoed and revealed about 500-530hp. Now I have personally seen dyno sheets from 1969 showing 640hp on a stock ZL-1 corvette. The motor was rated at less horse then the L-88s so people would not spend the extra money on the ZL-1. The ZL-1 was only built for racing, GM had to make the motor avaliable to the public so they could use it in their race program, the intention was never to let this beast hit the streets, and for what ever reasons a few did make it to the streets.
Now i can ABSOLUTLY confirm a 1969 ZL-1 corvette convertable was built and is currently in a private collection in Ohio. The car is complete but needs restoration. It is gold with saddle top and a 4 speed. I have seen the car myself, and have seen the tank sticker and other documentation on the car. I have even spoke to the person who ordered and took delivery of the car. It has 16,000 miles on it currently. There is another ZL-1 in Penn. this car was the press "mule car" and automatic to boot. That car is real and documented. The other 2 documented cars are the yellow car at roger corvettes in FLA. and the white car in a private collection. The gold car in Ohio does not have any black stripes like the other 2 cars and never did as i have seen the pictures from late 69 of the car being delivered on a trailer. This car may be the best documented car there is as the paper work is EXTENSIVE on the car. The Ohio car is also known by GM and has been known for some years now. This car was built as a favor for Zora as he pulled some strings to get the car built. I have seen the hand written letter from Zora ABSOLUTLY verifing the car to have been built. In the letter Zora rehashed his memory of the car and how fond of it he was. There is rumors of a ZL-1 in Arizona which is/was blue but i cannot confirm this for sure.
So GM built more then 2 ZL-1s as evident by 4 DOCUMENTED cars that are known to exist today. We also know that AT LEAST 7-9 real ZL-1s were built, and at least 20 CORVETTE ZL-1 motors were built. Most people think the ZL-1 cars and the L-88 cars were the same except for the motors, again this is not true. Yes you had to order the L-88 option to get the ZL-1, but there is a few very special things that the ZL-1 and ONLY the ZL-1 have.
I hope this helps to clarify some rumors and untruths of these legendary beasts. Yes they are rare, yes they are powerful, and yes more then 2 were built. I am considering writing a book about the ZL-1s as their story is truely unique and quite interesting.

66L36Coupe

HamadUP

It's really strange how he didn't mention John Maher's orange ZL1, this is a %100 documented car and John is the original owner.

bigdaddyvet

Well I guess I was not clear I INDEED mentioned the orange car owned by John. I should have been a little clearer and i appologize for this. Johns car is the car in PENN. that is the press mule car and is the automatic. The car was not orginally orange however and was painted orange due to the gulf racing connection. Again i hope this clarifies this.

bigdaddyvet

Just a quick note on the orange ZL-1. This car has been around for some time now and was first seen in public as an L-88 car then "converted" into a ZL-1 car. This car was questioned for several years about it being real. For some time NO documentation was ever seen on the car then about 8 years or so ago documentation was made avaliable and the car has been documented as a REAL ZL-1. I know the car has a ZL-1 motor in it currently however i know the motor is NOT the orginial to the car. That being said i have heard the orginal motor is owned by John and is complete and in storage. This car may be a great example of how the cars were real ZL-1s but sold as L-88s. I believe the story on Johns car is that Don Yenko helped get him the car. Again i am not sure on that, but it does make some sense as Yenko was a huge part of Chevy racing in the 60s and 70s as we all know. Several years ago i looked at that car when it was an L-88 his license plate on the car was 69 ZL1 i think, and i questioned him about it, at that time he assured me it was real and he had documentation on the car. Since then documentation has been made public and yes the car is real. It has been raced since day one. Interestingly on that car the side pipes were not the factory 69 style pipes they were more of the after market type look made by hooker and black. The owner says that is the way they came from GM. The gold car in Ohio also has these black "after market" type pipes on it too. GM did crazy stuff back then.

Earthquake Driver

http://corvettes-musclecars.com/gall...L-1+427-430HP/

SeeThrees

Here's one of the articles on John Maher's car.

http://www.corvettefever.com/feature...zl1/index.html

groovyjay

If you decide to write the book, put me down for two copies!

69ttop502

I thought both L88's and ZL1's were rated at 430 horsepower. I would be interested to hear where the 100+ horsepower difference came from between L88 and ZL1. Hard to see based on cam specs and cylinder heads and displacement was the same. I just don't see how it could be on a comparison of stock L88 vs. stock ZL1.

early shark

The camshaft specifications were not the same between the L-88 and the ZL-1 option. The heads were not the same configuration or the pistons when comparing the earlier '69 production L-88 to the '69 ZL-1 either.

Rowdy Rat

I don't even know where to begin...

Regards,

emccomas

Yeah, me either....

OK, let me try it this way...

To bigdaddyvet;

It appears that you joined The CorvetteForum on 9/20/09 (yesterday). You stated A LOT of "facts" but did not provide any information on how you know these to be facts.

I am aware of information about two of the ZL-1s that you mentioned that seem to contradict your statements. I, and I am sure many others, would like to know the real story behind these cars.

Please tell us more about yourself, and the basis for your knowledge of these cars.

Let me throw out a little teaser...the rumor of a blue 4 speed ZL-1 coupe in the St. Louis area.

Looking forward to hearing more....

bigdaddyvet

Actually the internals of the L-88 and the ZL-1 motors are quite different. You can use the L-88 internals on a ZL-1 motor, but you CANNOT use the ZL-1 internals on an L-88 engine. The dome of the piston is higher on the ZL-1 creating 12.5 to 1 compression. The cam is actually very different with a HUGE duration on the ZL-1 motors. Also on the corvette ZL-1 blocks there is extra bolt holes under the windage tray as well as very different porting of the heads. Again there is also the physical differences in the motors too. The 109 pounds saved from the aluminum motor was really just icing on the cake as the entire intent of the motor was to build more power and more torque. The extra hp is exactly what GM designed this motor for, on the outside basically their stock L-88 (Aluminium of course,) but the redesigned internals giving a huge power curve and monster torque. Please understand the ZL-1 motor was ONLY built for chevy racing and GM did EVERYTHING in their power to not let the ZL-1 hit the streets, hence the $11,000+ price tag in 1969. Take nothing away from the L-88 motor is is an extremely powerful and well designed motor. GM just wanted an edge over dodge and the factory race wars of the 60's and 70's. Yes the L-88 was rated at 430 hp and the ZL-1 also at 430hp. Think about it, not knowing what we know now about these cars and motors, why would ANYONE spend 11 grand on a car when you can spend less then half on and L-88 and really get the same ADVERTISIED performance. That was the mind set of GM back then. To be honest i would have bought the L-88 too at that time as i just to save 109 pounds is not worth the extra $6000.

i also read early on in this thread about the red ZL-1 car being run then showing up later with the 454r motor a year later. This is true and false at the same time. The chassis of the cars were the same however the bodies were not. that car was actually destroyed by GM as a "pilot car" program.

bigdaddyvet

I have been restoring and researching corvettes for almost 30 years. I said in my first post i was new here and i respect that. I would like to know what i contradicted myself on also as i will be happy to clarify anything. I have been an NCRS judge at locals and nationals several times. I have restored SEVERAL high profile cars in the corvette circle. I am not the end all be authority on these cars however i have 10 years of research and a many documents about the cars that i have collected. I have been called an expert on the cars, but i DO NOT call myself an expert, just an avid sportsman. There is 3 very public very documented ZL-1 cars known. I have also stated about the gold convertable in Ohio that i have sat in, driven, and read through a phone book sized file of documentation on the car. Like i said before this may be the best documented ZL-1 out there to date. It has been in the ame collection since 1986 and before that the car sat since 1970. The owner of the car has asked me not to post his name as he does not want any hassle. The research about the ZL-1 cars started several years ago and has MANY sources. I have spoken to GM officals on and off the record several times reguarding these cars and have papers about everything i have talked about. I spoke to a supervisor from the tonawanda engine plant who was there in 69 and he confirmed the motors and the such. My goal here is/was not to cause any issues, just to clarify some rumors and facts about these legends. I am interested in the blue car in st louis, this is a new rumor to me, however this MAY be the blue car from Arizona that has been rumored for some time now. ALso the car would have to be a 4 spd as only 1 of the cars is an automatic. Again I just happened onto this forum doing a google search as i do nearly every day reguarding the ZL-1. I will be happy to answer any questions that i can. I cannot name people due to privacy issues but i will gladly explain or do what i can to answer questions. I have in my possession the tech. drawings of the ZL-1 motors dated 1966.

What would you like to know about the "real" stories behind these cars? and of which 2 cars are you refering to? Please note that much of the public stories of these cars are rumors and just plan stories.

Mike Ward

Just a quick message to say hi to bigdaddyvet, since you mentioned that you're a fellow NCRS member and judge. We may have met at one of the regionals or nationals.

Mike Ward is my real name, NCRS #29001.

bigdaddyvet

Ok just to clarify, these are the KNOWN and DOCUMENTED ZL-1 cars as of today 9-21-09:

The orange ZL-1 AUTOMATIC convertable* "press mule" car owned by John Maher located in Pennsylvania.

The Yellow ZL-1 is owned by Roger of Rogers corvettes in Fla.

The White ZL-1 is in a private collection and is in Colorado.

The Gold ZL-1 Convertable* is in a private collection in Ohio.

* just to be clear of the 7-9 cars built, only 2 were convertable, and BOTH those cars are known and documented to d

Now there is RUMORS of a blue car in Arizona and now possibly in St. Louis (although i have not heard of this car.)

69ttop502

The only thing I am having trouble swallowing is that a stock L88 is down over 100 horsepower to the ZL1. I am aware of the camshaft differences and the open chamber/ closed chamber head differences. There is nothing there to convince me that the ZL1 made that much more power. I have personally witnessed an engine dyno where an iron block was replaced by an aluminum block with the same internals. At the 700 horsepower level, the aluminum block was down 50+ horsepower. This was with a modern (Brodix) aluminum block which would be much stronger than the old ZL1 block. Sorry, but I just can't swallow the difference. In Mueller's book, he stated the ZL1 in the 500hp range as I recall. (don't have the book in front of me)

Oh and I was under the impression that the Sudyham (sp) white ZL1 was not a real one.

Bill

emccomas

This is what I think I know about the white ZL-1. Last I heard, it was part of the Kevin Suydam collection. This is the ex Otis Chandler car. Not much documentation on this car, as I recall.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...wu4r5EJgOxB99A

Your statement that the orange car was not originally orange is interesting. The original owner told me the car was an original orange car, and it did not have a ZL-1 stripe on the front.

Then there is the blue ZL-1 convertible in Florida that is "believed" to be a clone, but who knows.

Would you care to tell us your real name?