Lost trim tag
Thread Starter
Navigator
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Kolding, Denmark
Lost trim tag
Hi
I am looking at a "1970 Restored Corvette Convertible 2 Top 4 Speed" on ebay.
It is a numbers matching car, but the trim tag was lost when painted.
How does this impact the status/price of the car? Can a new trim tag be addded again?
Thanks,
Lars
I am looking at a "1970 Restored Corvette Convertible 2 Top 4 Speed" on ebay.
It is a numbers matching car, but the trim tag was lost when painted.
How does this impact the status/price of the car? Can a new trim tag be addded again?
Thanks,
Lars
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,540
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From: TX
Sure, but it will be a repro tag. If the car has documentation as to
what color is correct then it should not matter. If there is no documentation then there will always be a question and no proof
one way or another.
what color is correct then it should not matter. If there is no documentation then there will always be a question and no proof
one way or another.
Race Director
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Thread Starter
Navigator
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Kolding, Denmark
But why ?
Thanks for the replies, it confirmed my thoughts.
But why does anybody remove the tag?
Could it be because of rust needing repair or that you want to hide the repaint?
And on the other side, the seller could just find another "random" tag and mount if no other documentation where available, and still claim it to be numbers matching.
I am new to Corvette's but looking for one for the moment, and don't want to be fooled too much.
So how much documentation is needed to claim it to be numbers matching?
Thanks,
Lars
But why does anybody remove the tag?
Could it be because of rust needing repair or that you want to hide the repaint?
And on the other side, the seller could just find another "random" tag and mount if no other documentation where available, and still claim it to be numbers matching.
I am new to Corvette's but looking for one for the moment, and don't want to be fooled too much.
So how much documentation is needed to claim it to be numbers matching?
Thanks,
Lars
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,540
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From: TX
Lars, you will get alot of opinions here which is good for a newish
buyer. If it is a rare Lt1 or big block car it hurts more. It would not
bother me if it has a very nice paint job the color you like. NCRS
judging events would always subtract points for a repro tag but
it is all according to what your plans are for the car. There are
more important issues to be concerned about other than the missing
tag when making a decision such as original engine, rust, accidents
etc. Again, this is my opinion based on my experience.
buyer. If it is a rare Lt1 or big block car it hurts more. It would not
bother me if it has a very nice paint job the color you like. NCRS
judging events would always subtract points for a repro tag but
it is all according to what your plans are for the car. There are
more important issues to be concerned about other than the missing
tag when making a decision such as original engine, rust, accidents
etc. Again, this is my opinion based on my experience.
Last edited by crossram; Nov 11, 2009 at 08:16 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
Most Likely Reason: To paint the car. Before '76, the tags were unpainted and attached to the car after the body had left the paint shop.
Possible Reason: To fake it. A bogus trim tag could contain codes for a more desirable color combination.
The tags are not random. They were individually stamped for a specific Corvette. They contain codes for the original interior and exterior colors and the date the car passed the station on the assembly line where the trim tag was attached. A tag for a blue car with black leather interior assembled on April 1st is not applicable to a white car with red interior assembled on April 2nd.
In order to replace a missing tag, you need documentation of the original color combination, vinyl or leather upholstery where applicable, and the calendar date the car was assembled.
Possible Reason: To fake it. A bogus trim tag could contain codes for a more desirable color combination.
...And on the other side, the seller could just find another "random" tag and mount if no other documentation where available, and still claim it to be numbers matching...
In order to replace a missing tag, you need documentation of the original color combination, vinyl or leather upholstery where applicable, and the calendar date the car was assembled.
Last edited by Easy Mike; Nov 11, 2009 at 09:08 AM.
Team Owner
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From: In limbo
St. Jude Donor '13-'15, '17 thru '22
I think the important thing to remember here is that THIS IS NOT A SHOW CAR!!!!! Well, at least not in the way most of us think of show cars, and was clearly not restored to NCRS specifications, or with apparently any desire to return the car to "original". One thing about the paint color is for certain, it was NOT torch red!
That said, I still wouldn't love the idea of a car missing its trim tag. There is no reason to remove a trim tag for painting, and the body is fiberglas, so I fail to see how it would need to be removed to deal with a rust situation. The missing tag would perk up my paranoid sensors as to the possible legal issues with the car before I would get in a bunch about re-sale.
That said, I still wouldn't love the idea of a car missing its trim tag. There is no reason to remove a trim tag for painting, and the body is fiberglas, so I fail to see how it would need to be removed to deal with a rust situation. The missing tag would perk up my paranoid sensors as to the possible legal issues with the car before I would get in a bunch about re-sale.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Abingdon MD
My .02:
This is a big RED FLAG!! Even if removed for painting, where is it and why was it not re-applied?
I would be very suspicious that something may be misrepresented here somewhere in this car's history. There are just way too many cars available with decent histories and documentation to take a chance on this one.
Rickman
This is a big RED FLAG!! Even if removed for painting, where is it and why was it not re-applied?
I would be very suspicious that something may be misrepresented here somewhere in this car's history. There are just way too many cars available with decent histories and documentation to take a chance on this one.
Rickman
Race Director
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For any car with a questionable history, why should you be the one that buys it at full price? You'll just run into problems years from now when you try to sell it. Either pass, or deduct the full value of the 'problem' from the sale price.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Indy Indiana
1st: buy it based on an assumption that it has no history and is undocumented.. then who cares if it does or does not have a trim tag. Base the price on that.
2nd: the trim tag contains codes for paint, interior and build date of the car.. it does not contain the VIN #.. finding a used trim tag will be next to impossibe as it would have to have a correct date on it also. a more desireable paint/interior combonation on a trim tag is usually only opinion and so many other characteristics have to come into play before the rare paint/interior combo would be taken into consideration. A wrong date on a trim tag is major proof that the car is faked.
Most C3 corvettes have a specific birthday and this is documented based on the VIN#, to find a used trim tag with that same date ( or maybe plus/minus 2 days at the most) and the color combo that you want simply can't be done.. you will have to go the repro route... which will fool almost everybody except the most knowledgeable corvette buyer or until you get it judged.. but you would still be buying documentation for an undocumented car. That's OK as long as you disclose this when selling the car.
2nd: the trim tag contains codes for paint, interior and build date of the car.. it does not contain the VIN #.. finding a used trim tag will be next to impossibe as it would have to have a correct date on it also. a more desireable paint/interior combonation on a trim tag is usually only opinion and so many other characteristics have to come into play before the rare paint/interior combo would be taken into consideration. A wrong date on a trim tag is major proof that the car is faked.
Most C3 corvettes have a specific birthday and this is documented based on the VIN#, to find a used trim tag with that same date ( or maybe plus/minus 2 days at the most) and the color combo that you want simply can't be done.. you will have to go the repro route... which will fool almost everybody except the most knowledgeable corvette buyer or until you get it judged.. but you would still be buying documentation for an undocumented car. That's OK as long as you disclose this when selling the car.
Team Owner
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From: Crossville TN
Changing the 'trim tag' is certainly not illegal, so you can buy a replacement with appropriate codes for the color of your car's paint and interior (assuming that they are similar to what was available that year). Now, if you have the car judged at an NCRS event, you may lose points for that tag...IF it is deemed to be a replacement and/or the data on it is improper (impossible date code for that S/N car). And, it would be unethical to represent that replacement tag as 'original' should you sell the car. In fact, if you don't tell the buyer that the tag is a replacement, it would still be unethical.
Now, changing the VIN tag is an entirely different story.
Now, changing the VIN tag is an entirely different story.
Race Director
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From: Shamong, NJ
Now, if you have the car judged at an NCRS event, you may lose points for that tag...IF it is deemed to be a replacement and/or the data on it is improper (impossible date code for that S/N car).
Now, changing the VIN tag is an entirely different story.[/QUOTE]
NCRS will not judge the car if it is found to have a repro trim tag on it! The NCRS will pull it from judging and the car and it's VIN will be added to throw NCRS' data bank so that it is flagged if it is ever entered at an NCRS meet again in the future.
Now, changing the VIN tag is an entirely different story.
[/QUOTE]NCRS will not judge the car if it is found to have a repro trim tag on it! The NCRS will pull it from judging and the car and it's VIN will be added to throw NCRS' data bank so that it is flagged if it is ever entered at an NCRS meet again in the future.
Race Director
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I'm sorry but that is just 100% BS.
The judging of cars with missing or repro trim tags is very well explained in the manuals and leaves little or no room for misinterpretation on the subject.Are you even a member?
Thread Starter
Navigator
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Kolding, Denmark
Thanks a lot for all your feedback on this issue. It has been interesting to read and I am now better "armed" to deal with it - even though I still really don't know what to ask for if the seller can document the car.
But my Corvette will travel to Denmark, and I dont think we have the same judging organization here. I just thought that the "numbers matching" car would be the most attractive and valuable when I later should sell it. And then again, who knows what to ask for when I sell it again ....
Are there any guides that could estimate in percentage what the price should raise/fall depending on originality?
/Lars
But my Corvette will travel to Denmark, and I dont think we have the same judging organization here. I just thought that the "numbers matching" car would be the most attractive and valuable when I later should sell it. And then again, who knows what to ask for when I sell it again ....
Are there any guides that could estimate in percentage what the price should raise/fall depending on originality?
/Lars
Race Director
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The newest definition I hear was that it means 'stock looking engine compartment', even though the complete engine was an incorrect replacement.
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,540
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From: TX
Again, it all depends on what your definition of 'numbers matching' is. Don't assume the other person uses the the same meaning.
The newest definition I hear was that it means 'stock looking engine compartment', even though the complete engine was an incorrect replacement.
The newest definition I hear was that it means 'stock looking engine compartment', even though the complete engine was an incorrect replacement.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
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Agree and also agree that the NCRS will still judge the car and you can still get a top flight I believe, Mike correct me if I am wrong. Maybe he mean't a repro vin tag. I had a 67 20 years ago at a regional meet and it had a repro trim tag. I did not know it until the judge clarified it with me. Car still took a 2nd flight and it had a base coat clear coat and it was all blacked out underneath.
At present, if a repro trim tag is detected or it's 'conveniently missing', the original exterior colour and interior colour or material type can not be verified to have been restored correctly. As a result, and as a roundabout way of discouraging counterfeit cars, all possible points for colours and material types in these areas are deducted. This is a harsh enough 'hit' that the car cannot get better than a second flight even if everything else is 100% correct.
Painting with BB/CC is another discussion entirely.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Shamong, NJ
It seems that the shop that restored the car, convinced the then current owner that the car originally was a different color than what it was when he brought it to them. They removed the trim tag (that matched the color the car was previously painted), and sold him the repro tag.
I don't know why this car would have been handled differently than layed out in the Judging Reference Manual, but judging was not completed on that car. This was the only time I ever was involved in an NCRS meet when a car turned up with a bogus trim tag. I don't know how it has been handled other times.
Race Director
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The NCRS does not have any sort of databank available during judging for checking past history of cars. Judging rules specifically exclude using any prior knowledge of a car to eliminate any chance of prejudice against it. The data that is later recorded and kept by the Chief Judge is very elementary in nature and is not to be used as a Gestapo witch hunt.
Why not check the facts before spreading false stories?